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Michael Ellsberg, son of Daniel Ellsberg, joins Liron Shapira to explore the ethics, risks, and lessons of whistleblowing, government deception, and the looming threat of artificial superintelligence. The conversation anchors on Daniel Ellsberg’s Pentagon Papers, which exposed how US leaders manipulated public justification for the Vietnam War and how insider truth-telling can alter political trajectories, from Nixon’s responses to Watergate. Michael foregrounds his father’s Doomsday Machine, a Kennedy-era analysis of nuclear war planning, and frames it as a powerful analogy for today’s AI risk: the same trade-offs and decision points that once haunted nuclear policy now echo in labs racing toward artificial general intelligence. The hosts and guest hover around a central moral question: if internal estimates show danger greater than leadership acknowledges, do insiders owe the public a warning? The dialogue emphasizes the duty to whistleblow as a public good, even at personal cost, including the possibility of prison or ruin, mirroring Daniel Ellsberg’s own choice to leak and the eventual impact on public discourse about accountability and secrecy. The episode delves into historical specifics—Tonkin Gulf, the misrepresented troop estimates, and the cascade of escalation—while using those episodes to illuminate contemporary dynamics in AI labs where leaders fear being left behind if they pause or slow the push toward higher capability. Michael underlines that the risk is not merely about the existence of powerful tools but about how quickly and uncontrollably a misaligned or self-improving system could proliferate, especially in a multipolar world where many actors race for advantage. The conversation also bridges science and culture: the power of nonviolent resistance, the ethics of whistleblowing, and the tension between safeguarding current human flourishing and preserving a future that might be dominated by nonhuman intelligences. Across anecdotes about his father’s activism, his own experiences in copywriting disrupted by automation, and cinematic references like Doctor Strangelove, the episode presents a sobering portrait: the past’s lessons demand a vigilant, principled stance toward the present and future, where delaying or denying risk could be catastrophic. The discussion weaves together topics from AI doom and risk to insider testimony, critiques of “it’s all under control” optimism, and the historical parallels between Vietnam War deception and AI hype. It also considers potential institutional and international governance responses to AI risk.

Edward Snowden joins Joe Rogan for a discussion about surveillance, privacy rights, and the implications of recent court rulings. Snowden highlights a significant Ninth Circuit Court ruling that deemed the NSA's bulk collection of Americans' phone records illegal, marking a victory for privacy rights. He reflects on the historical context of the Patriot Act and the dangers of government overreach, emphasizing the need for end-to-end encryption to protect personal communications from government surveillance. The conversation shifts to the role of technology in surveillance and policing, with Snowden discussing the NSO Group's Pegasus malware and the implications of mass surveillance on civil liberties. He critiques the lack of accountability for government officials who violate privacy rights, arguing that the system is designed to protect those in power while punishing ordinary citizens. Snowden expresses concern over the erosion of privacy and the normalization of surveillance, urging for a cultural shift that prioritizes individual rights. He discusses the importance of whistleblowers and the need for a legal framework that protects them, advocating for a change in how society views accountability and justice. The dialogue also touches on police violence and the systemic issues within law enforcement, with Snowden suggesting that police unions contribute to a lack of accountability. He argues for a reevaluation of policing practices and the need for better training and support for officers. Throughout the conversation, Snowden maintains a hopeful outlook, emphasizing the potential for societal change and the importance of collective action in addressing systemic injustices. He concludes by reiterating the need for a cultural commitment to civility and understanding, advocating for a society that encourages growth and learning from past mistakes.

The conversation begins with Glenn Greenwald reflecting on the scarcity of whistleblowers like Edward Snowden and Julian Assange since 2013. He attributes this to the aggressive use of the Espionage Act by the Obama administration, which sought to destroy the lives of leakers like Chelsea Manning and Snowden, creating a climate of fear. Greenwald highlights Julian Assange's visionary understanding of digital leaks and the government's subsequent efforts to dismantle such journalism. He recounts Trump's near-pardon of Snowden, thwarted by establishment Republicans fearing declassification of sensitive files and conviction during impeachment proceedings. Greenwald then identifies five critical areas for future whistleblowers: the Epstein files (revealing global elite corruption), the allocation of billions in US aid to Ukraine, the US-Israel relationship, the CIA's activities, and the NSA's domestic spying. The discussion delves deeply into the US-Israel dynamic, with Greenwald arguing that US support is often detrimental to American interests, citing Israel's disregard for US policy on settlements and its extensive spying on the US. Patrick Bet-David offers a business analogy, suggesting Trump aims to diversify US alliances in the Middle East to gain leverage, treating Israel less like an "only child." The conversation shifts to interventionism versus non-interventionism. Greenwald advocates for non-interventionism, citing China's economic growth without constant foreign wars and arguing that US interventions primarily benefit the military-industrial complex, not the American people. He criticizes the US's historical overthrow of democratic governments and installation of dictatorships, using Venezuela as a current example where intervention is framed as liberation but serves other interests. Bet-David questions the feasibility of non-interventionism given global complexities and historical entanglements. Finally, the hosts discuss media consolidation, specifically Larry Ellison's acquisition of CBS News and Paramount, and his involvement in TikTok's ownership. Greenwald expresses concern over the centralization of media control in the hands of a pro-Israel billionaire, especially given declining public support for Israel among younger generations. He points to the appointment of a former IDF soldier to moderate TikTok content related to Israel and antisemitism. The podcast concludes with a brief discussion on Brazilian politics, Lula's relationship with Trump, and the ongoing political struggles involving former President Bolsonaro, highlighting US influence and transactional diplomacy in the region.

Edward Snowden discusses his life after revealing government surveillance practices, emphasizing that he does not receive money from Russia and works by giving speeches and interviews. He wrote a book titled "Permanent Record," detailing his experiences and the implications of technology on government power post-9/11. Upon the book's release, the U.S. government filed a lawsuit against him and his publisher, aiming to suppress the information. Snowden reflects on his background in the CIA and NSA, revealing that he witnessed significant violations of constitutional rights through mass surveillance programs. He explains that the government is only supposed to monitor individuals with specific suspicion, but post-9/11, this changed dramatically, leading to widespread surveillance without proper legal justification. He highlights the role of key figures like Dick Cheney in creating secret legal interpretations that allowed for these practices. He describes the challenges of discussing these issues in mainstream media, where conversations are often limited to short sound bites, preventing meaningful dialogue about the implications of surveillance. Snowden emphasizes the importance of understanding the government's actions and the need for public awareness and engagement in these matters. Snowden recounts his journey from being a contractor to becoming a whistleblower, detailing his motivations and the risks involved. He expresses a desire for transparency and accountability in government actions, arguing that the public should have the right to know about surveillance practices that affect their lives. He discusses the ongoing relevance of his revelations, noting that mass surveillance has only become more pervasive with the rise of smartphones and digital technology. He critiques the legal framework that allows for such surveillance, particularly the third-party doctrine, which undermines individuals' privacy rights. Snowden reflects on his current life in Russia, where he has permanent residency but remains critical of the Russian government. He acknowledges the complexities of living in exile while advocating for privacy rights and government accountability. He concludes by emphasizing the need for collective action to address these issues, urging individuals to recognize their power in shaping the future and advocating for their rights.

Tucker Carlson and Glenn Greenwald discuss their shared perspectives on various political issues, emphasizing the importance of honesty and the dangers of self-deception. They reflect on the significance of loyalty, ethics, and the motivations behind actions taken by individuals in power, particularly in relation to whistleblower Edward Snowden and the implications of his revelations about government surveillance. Greenwald recounts Snowden's meticulous planning to leak classified information, driven by a sense of betrayal regarding the U.S. government's actions. He highlights the ethical dilemmas faced by whistleblowers like Snowden and Daniel Ellsberg, who exposed government misconduct and faced vilification for their actions. They discuss the changing political landscape, noting how traditional leftist values, such as free speech and skepticism towards the security state, have been co-opted by the right, particularly in the context of the Israel-Palestine conflict. The conversation shifts to the current state of media and political discourse, with Greenwald expressing concern over the rise of censorship and the erosion of free speech. He critiques the left's abandonment of its historical commitment to free expression in favor of political correctness and the right's potential hypocrisy in advocating for free speech while simultaneously supporting censorship against dissenting views. They also touch on the authoritarian tendencies observed in various governments, including Brazil, where Greenwald has faced legal challenges for his reporting. He emphasizes the interconnectedness of global political dynamics, asserting that the repression seen in one country can serve as a model for others. The discussion concludes with a hopeful note about the resilience of human reason and the potential for positive change, underscoring the importance of maintaining a free internet as a platform for dissent and discourse.

Dylan describes a life disrupted by a sequence of whistleblower disclosures tied to classified programs and alleged legacy UAP efforts. He recounts working within a private-government structure where information was tightly compartmentalized, and where attempts to discuss certain topics triggered warnings, purgatory-like treatment of clearance status, and pressure from multiple agencies. He details how colleagues who questioned or shared sensitive experiences faced career devastation, home intrusions, and surveillance, leading many to silence. The narrative emphasizes personal stakes: financial ruin, psychological strain, and a sustained sense of being targeted for speaking out. Across the conversation, he connects his own experiences with broader concerns about oversight, accountability, and the potential for political or institutional pushback against individuals who come forward. He describes a pattern of inquiries, investigations, and protections that both promise transparency and manifestly fail to shield whistleblowers, culminating in meetings with Senate and House staff, AARO, and the ICIG that left him feeling scrutinized rather than safeguarded. The interview underscores a broader frustration with how information about controversial technologies and activities is handled, including concerns about misinformation, internal group dynamics, and alleged influence operations that shape public discourse. The speakers reflect on the ethical implications of withholding or selectively sharing information, the role of Congress in imposing accountability, and the tension between national security protocols and the public’s right to know. Throughout, the emphasis remains on the human cost of disclosure, the fragility of whistleblowers’ lives, and the quest for a credible, protective framework that could enable truth-telling without endangering those who speak out. The conversation closes with a call for systemic change to support whistleblowers, improve oversight, and responsibly navigate the moral and practical challenges posed by decades of classified programs and contested claims about non-human technologies.

The episode presents John Kiriakou’s account of a career in the CIA and the broader reality of global espionage and surveillance. He describes capabilities attributed to the intelligence community, including remote control of vehicles, smart devices, and the broadcasting of information from devices that are thought to be off. He recounts Vault 7 disclosures, which included examples of CIA operatives exploiting electronic systems and the implications for everyday security. The conversation moves through Kiriakou’s whistleblowing about the CIA’s torture program and the ethical considerations that motivated him to speak out, including the assertion that torture did not yield reliable information and that it violated legal and moral norms. Alongside personal history, the interview delves into the mechanics of intelligence work, such as asset recruitment, the asset acquisition cycle, and the training that officers receive. The dialogue also touches on the CIA’s relationship with the media and Hollywood, and the notion that documentary narratives and pop culture often portray the agency in a favorable light, which Kiriakou suggests is a strategic public-facing posture. The host and guest explore the psychology of spies, including how incentives, money, ideology, and personal circumstances drive people to divulge secrets, sometimes after long-term grooming, years of undercover life, or other coercive pressures. The interview then broadens to geopolitical analysis, evaluating the roles of major powers such as the United States, Israel, China, and Russia, and discussing how competition, influence operations, and economic leverage shape contemporary international relations. The discussion spirals into reflections on civil liberties, overcriminalization, and the balance between security and privacy, including concerns about metadata, surveillance capabilities, and the potential for government overreach. In closing, Kiriakou addresses messages for the general public about digital hygiene, cautious communication, and the ethical responsibilities of governments to uphold the law, while also acknowledging the personal cost of a life spent in the shadows and the possibility of pardons or future opportunities for public service and storytelling through writing and media work.