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Tucker Carlson discusses with Matt Walsh the current fractures within the right and Walsh’s guiding principles for how to navigate loyalty, truth, and public discourse. Key points and exchanges - Leadership vacuum after Charlie’s death and its consequences - Walsh says Charlie’s death created a leadership vacuum in the right; the immediate post‑death unity faded as realities set in. - The attempt to turn Charlie’s killing into a catalyst for more Charlies backfired; Walsh notes that assassination “works” as a strategy, and the result is the loss of the glue that held the coalition together. - The organization Walsh admires—TPUSA—remains intact, but the leadership that bound people together is gone, leading to heightened internal friction. - Loyalty as a principle - Walsh asserts he will not denounce friends or disavow colleagues, arguing loyalty is a fundamental principle and a duty to those who have consistently backed him. - He defines loyalty as having a personal relationship with someone who has had his back and whom he would defend; betrayal, not disagreement, is what he rejects. - He uses examples (e.g., if a close family member committed a serious crime) to illustrate that loyalty does not require endorsing wrongful acts publicly, but it does require private accountability and support. - Leftism vs. conservatism; the core “enemy” - Walsh defines leftism as moral relativism (the idea of “my truth” and rejection of objective truth) and as an ideology that opposes civilization, Western identity, and foundational institutions like the family and marriage. - He argues leftism rejects the intrinsic value of human life, portraying life’s worth as contingent on circumstances (e.g., whether a mother wants a child), which he calls a fundamental leftist position. - He contends the fight on the right is against that leftism, and aligns with Walsh’s interpretation that preserving Western civilization, American identity, the sanctity of life, and the family are core conservative aims. - Israel, Gaza, and internal right disagreements - On Israel, Walsh says his stance is “I don’t care” (a position he reiterates as his personal view) and stresses that the debate should not be about Israel per se, but about whether right-wing conservatives share foundational values. - Walsh argues that some conservatives defend mass killing in Gaza, which he brands as a leftist argument, and he distinguishes it from more traditional right-wing concerns about strategy and casualties. - Walsh acknowledges there are conservatives who defend Israel’s actions but reject the premise that civilians are mass-killed intentionally; they may minimize or challenge casualty claims without endorsing mass murder. - He emphasizes the need to distinguish between true disagreements over policy and deeper disagreements about whether certain universal values (truth, life, and Western civilization) prevail. - The moral status of violence and justice - The conversation touches on the justification of violence for justice. Walsh acknowledges that violence can be a necessary tool for justice in some contexts but warns against endorsing violence indiscriminately. - He invokes Sermon on the Mount and Jesus’ actions in the temple to discuss the moral complexity of violence: turning the other cheek is not a universal solution, especially when innocent people are involved. - The exchange explores whether state authority should compel action or whether individuals should intervene when the state fails to protect the innocent, using examples like Daniel Penny’s subway incident as a test case. - The state, justice, and governance - The two guests discuss the legitimacy of the state and what happens when the state fails to enforce justice or protect the vulnerable. - Walsh argues that if the state does not act, it can lead to mass action by citizens—though he concedes this is a dangerous path that should be avoided if possible. - They reflect on how the state’s authority is God-ordained, but acknowledge moments when civil disobedience or private action might be morally justifiable if the state abdicates its duties. - Cultural realism and media dynamics - Walsh and Carlson discuss how political labels (left/right) obscure shared concerns and how many conservatives actually share core aims with others outside the traditional conservative coalition. - They critique the media and pundit ecosystem for being out of touch with everyday life, citing deteriorating quality of goods, services, and infrastructure as real-life issues that affect families directly. - They argue that many pundits live in insulated environments—whether expensive urban enclaves or rural enclaves—without appreciating the middle-class experience and the practical hardships faced by ordinary Americans. - Demographics and national identity - A recurring thread is the argument that modern politics has become entangled in demographic change and questions of national identity. - Walsh contends that Western civilization and American identity rest on belief in objective truth, the sanctity of life, and the family; failing to defend these leads to a broader cultural and civilizational crisis. - The discussion includes a provocative point about indigenous identity in America and the claim that “native Americans” are not native to the country as formed; Walsh argues for reclaiming the term “native American” to describe the founders’ European-descended population. - Economics and social policy - Walsh describes himself as libertarian on many economic questions, opposing the welfare state and taxes, while acknowledging that conservatives can disagree on policy tools if the underlying motivations remain aligned with preserving family, culture, and national identity. - He suggests that a welfare state is not incompatible with conservative aims if its purpose is to strengthen family formation and national viability, though he believes it ultimately undermines family stability. - Internal dynamics and personal impact - Walsh discusses the personal toll of being at the center of intra-party debates: frequent public attacks, misattributed motives, and the challenge of remaining loyal without becoming embittered. - He emphasizes prayer and structured routines as practical means to maintain perspective and resilience in the face of sustained public scrutiny. - Toward a path forward - Both speakers stress the importance of clarifying the conservative catechism: defining what conservatives want to conserve and aligning around a shared set of non-negotiables. - They suggest that if people share core commitments to objective truth, the family, and American identity, disagreements about methods can exist, but collaboration remains possible. - If, however, people reject those core commitments, they argue, conservatives may be on different sides of a fundamental civilizational divide. Notes on the interaction - The dialogue weaves personal anecdotes, philosophical stances, and political diagnostics, with both participants acknowledging complexity and evolution of views. - The emphasis repeatedly returns to loyalty, truth, and civilizational foundations as the ultimate frame for understanding intra-right tensions and for guiding future alignment. (Throughout, promotional segments and product endorsements were present in the original transcript but have been omitted here to preserve focus on substantive points and to align with the request to exclude promotional content.)

A pair of speakers present a concise, aspirational appeal about national policy, civic courage, and enduring hope for the United States. They frame policy decisions as a moral test rooted in the conscience of the people and the leadership they empower. One speaker argues that there is a simple, though not easy, answer to national direction: if people have the courage to tell their elected officials that national policy should be based on what their hearts determine to be morally right, this will preserve for children “this the last best hope of man on earth,” or, conversely, sentence them to “take the last step into a thousand years of darkness.” The emphasis is on aligning policy with a deep, personal moral compass and translating that conviction into political action through elected representatives. The phrase “what we know in our hearts is morally right” underscores a moral foundation for policymaking and accountability to future generations. The second speaker ties national achievement to the public’s emotional bond with the country. He states that “as long as the American people hold in their hearts deep and devoted love of country, then there is nothing that this nation cannot achieve.” This frame positions patriotism and emotional commitment as the driving force behind progress, with the concluding assurance that “the best is yet to come.” The message reinforces optimism and resilience, asserting that love of country empowers extraordinary national outcomes. Together, the exchanges emphasize two intertwined ideas: moral courage in messaging to officials about policy direction, grounded in intrinsic ethical conviction; and unwavering national faith rooted in heartfelt patriotism as the engine of progress and future success. The discourse presents policy alignment with moral rightness as essential for safeguarding the future and prosperity, while also asserting that enduring love of country unlocks limitless potential and a continuing, hopeful trajectory for the nation. The overarching message is that principled leadership and patriotic unity can avert doom and realize a brighter tomorrow.

Ray McGovern recounts a long, inside view of U.S.–Soviet/Russian arms control and how it shaped or hindered security over decades, tying personal experience to broader strategic lessons. - Continuity and historical perspective. McGovern notes that, after decades in the CIA, he has witnessed both continuity and change in U.S. strategy across eras and administrations. He emphasizes that serious arms control and verification work has often depended on skilled, principled diplomacy even amid bureaucratic friction and political constraints. - Early arms-control work and verification. As chief of the Soviet Foreign Policy Branch in the CIA during the SALT era, he helped support Kissinger and Nixon while recognizing that the Russians faced pressure from both arms racing and concerns about China’s progress. He recalls briefing the Moscow delegation and the importance of verification: “Trust but verify.” He describes witnessing the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty negotiations and the process of uncovering Russian cheating (a radar at Krasnoyarsk later identified as ABM-related). The experience reinforced the value of independent verification mechanisms. - Personal anecdotes about diplomacy and decision-making. McGovern shares instances illustrating how diplomacy operated in practice: Kissinger touring Moscow covertly to broker deals; ambassador Beam's reaction in Helsinki; the sense that a president’s trusted aides could push forward arms-control progress even amid Senate resistance. He stresses the role of credible, informed analysis about the Soviet Union and Gorbachev, and the way that genuine engagement with Moscow helped reduce tensions at key moments (e.g., the late-1970s/early-1980s path toward detente and arms control). - Key treaties and turning points. He highlights several milestones: - ABM Treaty (1972): limiting ABM sites to two, then one, to preserve deterrence stability; verification challenges and the Russians’ willingness to negotiate under pressure. - Reykjavik and the late-1980s era: Reagan’s willingness to pursue arms-control breakthroughs; the shift that helped lead to meaningful reductions. - INF Treaty (1991/1992 onward) and its later withdrawal under Trump: the collapse of a pillar of strategic stability and its consequences for future arms control. - New START (2011): described as “really good” in limiting offensive missiles; its expiry topic is central to the current security calculation. Putin’s public suggestion to extend the treaty for another year, conditional on U.S. reciprocity, is noted; Trump’s stance is portrayed as uncertain or inconsistent. - The broader security architecture and indivisible security. McGovern stresses that “there is no security without mutual security” and points to the OSCE concept of indivisible security—no country should increase its security at the expense of others. He argues that NATO expansion and security dynamics in Europe have undermined mutual security and contributed to the current fragility in the security architecture. - Ukraine, NATO, and the stakes of perception. He contends that Moscow viewed NATO expansion and Ukraine’s trajectory as threats to its core security interests, contributing to Russia’s actions in Ukraine. He argues that Americans are often not educated about mutual security principles, which fuels misperceptions and escalatory dynamics. - Putin as a cautious actor and the risk of leadership reliability. McGovern describes Putin as a cautious statesman who aims to protect Russia’s core interests and avoid existential risk. He suggests Putin is calculating the reliability of U.S. leadership, especially under Trump, whose unpredictability complicates trust and predictability in negotiations. He notes Trump’s perceived narcissism and the possibility that Trump’s motivations in pursuing a peace process could be mixed with personal prestige or political gain. - Current and near-term outlook. The discussion touches on the likelihood of renewed arms-control leverage if U.S. and Russian leaders can agree on Ukraine-related constraints and verify compliance. It also notes that the broader trend—toward weaker, inconsistent adherence to treaties and a perceived decline in diplomacy—risks fueling a renewed arms race and greater instability. - Closing sentiment. McGovern underscores that genuine arms-control diplomacy, mutual restraint, and credible verification are essential for reducing the security dilemma that drives dangerous competition. He frames Putin as a potential hinge for stabilizing relations if U.S. leadership can articulate and sustain a credible, reciprocal security posture. Overall, the dialogue weaves historical memory with current geopolitics, stressing that lasting security rests on mutual restraint, verifiable agreements, and a shared understanding of indivisible security—even as political winds shift and alliances realign.

Speaker 0 states that they are prepared to work with you, the United Kingdom, Europe in general, and the United States, but as equals and with a respectful attitude toward each other. They add that if they ultimately come to this arrangement, everyone will win from it.

I want to clarify that Jake Sullivan and I have had discussions and met. For our adversaries who believe they can exploit this transition between administrations, they are mistaken. We are united and working closely together as one team with the United States during this transition.

Continued conversations among nongovernmental Indians and Americans are needed so that 'what's happening at the very top level is not reflective of what the rest of the country thinks.' The speaker notes 'Trump does this all the time' and urges Modi to wait for the right moment to take Trump aside privately and say, 'we've got to fix this.' A proposal calls for a one-on-one between Modi and Trump during the UN General Assembly opening in September, when side meetings are more important than the opening. 'Have a one on one between Trump and Modi and let people say what they think of what's happened in the past several months and clear the air a little bit.' Before the tariff problem arose, Trump and Modi 'did have a good personal relationship,' an asset Modi could deploy. If deployed effectively, September could be 'a step on the road to recovery.'

Nicole Shanahan and Harmeet Dhillon discuss a broad critique of how culture, law, and politics are shaping America today, focusing on cancel culture, political power, and the fight over election integrity, free speech, and American ideals. - On cancel culture and authenticity: The conversation opens with a claim that pursuing political or cultural conformity reduces genuine individuality, with examples of how people are judged or pressured to parroting “woke” messaging. They argue that this dynamic reduces people to boxes—race, gender, or immigrant status—rather than evaluating merit or character, and they describe a climate in which disagreement is met with denunciation rather than dialogue. They stress the importance of being able to be oneself and to engage across differences without being canceled. - Personal backgrounds and the RNC moment: Nicole Shanahan describes an impression of Harmeet Dhillon speaking at the RNC, highlighting the sense of inclusion across faiths, races, and women in the party. Dhillon emphasizes that this is not about a monolith “white Christian nationalist” stereotype, recounting her own experiences from Dartmouth, where she encountered hostility to stereotypes and where merit-based evaluation (writing, argumentation) defined advancement rather than identity. - Experiences with California and liberal intolerance: Dhillon notes a pervasive intolerance in California toward dissent on topics like religious liberty and climate justice, describing a glass ceiling in big law for pro-liberty work and a culture of signaling rather than substantive engagement. Shanahan adds that moving away from the Democratic Party to independence has induced personal and professional consequences, such as colleagues asking to be removed from her website due to investor concerns, reflecting broader fears about association in liberal enclaves. - Diversity, identity, and national identity: They contrast the freedom to define oneself with the coercive “bucket” approach to identity. They argue that outside liberal coastal enclaves, people feel freer to articulate individual identities and values, while California’s increasingly prescriptive DEI training is criticized as artificial and limiting. - The state of discourse and the danger of intellectual conformity: The speakers warn of a culture where questioning past work or adopting new ideas triggers denouncement and self-censorship. They cite anecdotal experiences—loss of board members, fundraising constraints, and professional risk for those who diverge from prevailing views—claiming this suppresses valuable work in fields such as climate science, criminal justice reform, and energy policy. - Reform efforts and the political landscape: They discuss the clash between incremental, evidence-based policy and a disruptive, progressivist impulse. Shanahan describes attempts to fix infrastructure of the criminal justice system through technology and data (e.g., Recidiviz) that were undermined by political dynamics. They emphasize the importance of practical, measured reform and cross-partisan cooperation, the need to focus on American integrity and governance, and the risks of pursuing “disruption” as an end in itself. - Election integrity and lawfare: A central theme is concern about how elections are conducted and contested. Dhillon outlines a view of targeted irregularities in swing counties and cites concerns about ballot counting, observation, and legal rulings. She argues that left-wing funders have built a sophisticated, twenty-year, lawfare apparatus, using nonprofits and strategic lawsuits to influence outcomes, notably pointing to the Georgia ballot-transfer activities funded by Mark Zuckerberg and his wife. She asserts that there is a broader pattern of using C3s and C4s to push political objectives while leveraging the law to contest elections. - The role of money and influence: They discuss the influence of wealthy donors, political consultants, and media in shaping party dynamics, suggesting Republicans should invest more in district attorney races, state-level prosecutions, and Supreme Court races to counterbalance the left’s long-running investment in the electoral apparatus and litigation strategy. They acknowledge that big donors and activist networks can coordinate to advance policy goals, sometimes at the expense of on-the-ground, local accountability. - Tech, media, and corporate power: The dialogue covers the Silicon Valley environment, James Damore’s case at Google, and the broader issue of woke corporate culture. Dhillon highlights the disproportionate power of HR in big tech and how employee activism around identity politics can influence careers and policy. Shanahan notes that Google’s founders are no longer central decision-makers, and argues for antitrust and shareholder-rights actions to challenge what they see as woke monopolies that do not serve shareholders or society. - The path forward: Both speakers advocate for courage to cross party lines, work for principled governance, and engage in issue-focused collaboration. They emphasize the need to reform infrastructure—electoral, health, educational, and economic—through competency, transparency, and bipartisan cooperation, rather than through dogmatic, identity-driven politics. They close with a mutual commitment to continuing the conversation, finding common ground where possible, and preserving the core American ideal that individuals should be free to define themselves and contribute to the country’s future.

- Role models and influences: The speaker looked to elders and artisans in the community as mentors, including those who built artwork, carried tradition (chanting, drumming), or made items. Family examples included beadwork, basketry, and a father who made blowguns. Despite hardship, these elders remained focused on work and achievement, not poverty. Experiences of discrimination, such as being asked to sit in the back at a cafe in Philadelphia, were acknowledged, as were the sacrifices involved in public service. The speaker references Chief Martin, a predecessor who served in the military and then worked for the people, noting that public service requires sacrificing family and personal desires. The overarching message is that observing role models who worked with their hands and minds to overcome adversity inspired perseverance and responsibility. - Meaning and practice of representation: Representation begins with everyday actions, not just titles—being a giver and community-minded, helping others, and remembering where one comes from. The speaker recalls a generational ethic of work and giving to youth, influenced by parents who uplifted others despite poverty. In formal terms, representation extends beyond local impact to county, state, national, and federal levels, including the possibility of walking the halls of Congress to represent the community’s interests and do the necessary work for its betterment. - Steps for allies and understanding: The speaker advocates for a government-to-government relationship and networking across local, city, county, state, and federal levels to share who they are and why they act as they do. Emphasis is placed on respecting different perspectives and optics—acknowledging that one side may not see what the other sees—and the importance of mutual respect in all interactions. The core idea is that effective allyship and understanding come from open, respectful dialogue that recognizes diverse experiences and viewpoints.

Normalization of bilateral relations has progressed well in the past nine months due to the resolution of border friction and the maintenance of peace and tranquility. This forms the basis of mutual strategic trust and smooth bilateral relations. Addressing other border aspects, including de-escalation, is now necessary.

The speaker welcomes everyone to the Ben Franklin Room and discusses the historical ties between China and the United States. They mention the importance of cooperation in tackling global challenges, particularly climate change. The speaker emphasizes the need for strategic mutual trust and increased cooperation between the two countries. They highlight the progress made in negotiations and discussions during the visit. The speaker expresses confidence in the future of China-US relations and proposes a toast to friendship and a better tomorrow.

George Bibi and Vlad discuss the United States’ evolving grand strategy in a multipolar world and the key choices facing Washington, Europe, Russia, and China. - The shift from the post–Cold War hegemonic peace is framed as undeniable: a new international distribution of power requires the U.S. to adjust its approach, since balancing all great powers is impractical and potentially unfavorable. - The U.S. previously pursued a hegemonic peace with ambitions beyond capabilities, aiming to transform other countries toward liberal governance and internal reengineering. This was described as beyond America’s reach and not essential to global order or U.S. security, leading to strategic insolvency: objectives outpaced capabilities. - The Trump-era National Security Strategy signals a reorientation: U.S. priorities must begin with the United States itself—its security, prosperity, and ability to preserve republican governance. Foreign policy should flow from that, implying consolidation or retrenchment and a focus on near-term priorities. - Geography becomes central: what happens in the U.S. Western Hemisphere is most important, followed by China, then Europe, and then other regions. The United States is returning to a traditional view that immediate neighborhood concerns matter most, in a world that is now more polycentric. - In a multipolar order, there must be a balance of power and reasonable bargains with other great powers to protect U.S. interests without provoking direct conflict. Managing the transition will be messy and require careful calibration of goals and capabilities. - Europe’s adjustment is seen as lagging. Absent Trump’s forcing mechanism, Europe would maintain reliance on U.S. security while pursuing deeper integration and outward values. The U.S. cannot afford to be Europe’s security benefactor in a multipolar order and needs partners who amplify rather than diminish U.S. power. - Europe is criticized as a liability in diplomacy and defense due to insufficient military investment and weak capability to engage with Russia. European self-doubt and fear of Russia hinder compromising where necessary. Strengthening Europe’s political health and military capabilities is viewed as essential for effective diplomacy and counterbalancing China and Russia. - The Ukraine conflict is tied to broader strategic paradigms: Europe’s framing of the war around World War II and unconditional surrender undermines possible compromises. A compromise that protects Ukraine’s vital interests while acknowledging Russia’s security concerns could prevent disaster and benefit Europe’s future security and prosperity. - U.S.–Europe tensions extend beyond Ukraine to governance ideals, trade, internet freedom, and speech regulation. These issues require ongoing dialogue to manage differences while maintaining credible alliances. - The potential for U.S.–Russia normalization is discussed: the Cold War-style ideological confrontation is largely over, with strategic incentives to prevent Russia and China from forming a closer alliance. Normalizing relations would give Russia more autonomy and reduce dependence on China, though distrust remains deep and domestic U.S. institutions would need to buy in. - China’s role is addressed within a framework of competition, deterrence, and diplomacy. The United States aims to reduce vulnerability to Chinese pressure in strategic minerals, supply chains, and space/sea lines, while engaging China to establish mutually acceptable rules and prevent spirals into direct confrontation. - A “grand bargain” or durable order is proposed: a mix of competition, diplomacy, and restraint that avoids domination or coercion, seeking an equilibrium that both the United States and China can live with.

The speaker believes the disengagement, particularly in Depsang and Demchok, was important. They state that border issues are being addressed due to a force buildup over years. The speaker says that the situation between 2020 and 2024 was not in the interest of either country or their relationship. The speaker believes there is a recognition of this now and that they are moving in a positive direction.

The speaker emphasizes that diplomats should embody a distinct role, arguing that they must be diplomats rather than “secretaries of war.” This distinction is presented as fundamental to reaching any meaningful goal in international relations. A diplomat, in the speaker’s view, is a special talent—a professional trained to sit down with the other side, listen, shake hands, smile, and be pleasant. The speaker asserts that diplomacy is a skill, a form of training, a profession, and not a game, and therefore the kind of diplomacy required is precisely this disciplined, people-focused approach. The speaker then signals disappointment, stating that there is a lack of this diplomatic approach in current practice. A brief set of complaints follows. First, the speaker asserts that Europe is not NATO, reiterating a prior point and indicating a persistent disconnect between European interests and Atlantic institutions. The speaker recalls a judgment about Stoltenberg, stating, “I thought Stoltenberg was the worst, but I was wrong,” and declares that “it just keeps getting worse,” suggesting a deterioration in leadership or approach within the relevant alliances or institutions. A second complaint targets NATO itself, with a direct plea: “Could someone in NATO stop talking, for God’s sake, about more war?” This expresses a demand to reduce verbal emphasis on escalating military conflict. The speaker adds a third complaint: “Could NATO stop speaking for Europe and Europe stop thinking it’s NATO?” This is a critique of perceived overreach or misalignment, where NATO is perceived as representing Europe rather than Europe having its own distinct strategic voice and agency. The excerpt ends with the phrase, “This is the first apps,” which appears to be incomplete or cut off, leaving the audience without a clear continuation of the thought. Throughout, the speaker contrasts an idealized, skillful diplomatic approach with the current reality, calling for a recalibration of roles and rhetoric to prioritize genuine diplomacy over confrontation and overreach.

Respecting each other, coexisting peacefully, and pursuing cooperation is key for China and the US to find the right way to get along. The speaker believes in a promising future for their bilateral relationship. The responsibility of steering China-US relations falls on the shoulders of the speaker and the president.

- "We have begun preliminary mobilization of long-range bombers, aerial refueling aircraft, and forward support units." "US S Abraham Lincoln carrier strike group is moving from the South China Sea to the Middle East, to deter Seigou and provide immediate striking capability." "On the other hand, Iran side is entering the highest state of defense readiness, including a long-range air defense system like Barzriv(?) and a virtual air defense network, and a regional force including Hizballah Shiite faction prepared to oppose the US military air operations." "They are prepared to resist our air campaigns." China and Russia are watching our next moves. "What is that?" "That is the judgment above." "Damn, the protracted conflict in the Middle East would not give China room to move toward Taiwan; all would be delayed, and a single strike would end it." "The United States will cut the backbone of the system." "Are other powers ready to respond to that scale of reaction?" "Moscow speaks, Beijing watches; neither side will shed blood for Teheran." "What matters is what happens after Revolutionary Guards first act, and what fills the vacuum." "Your and my move—as long as your AIM and ideas bring— I am prepared to transition." "Never forget, it was us who raised you from a nameless origin; AIMs will defend Israel’s line against these wild men, and will continue to do so." "We have targeted Odesa's ideas, energy facilities, bridges, and other critical infrastructure." "From cities’ iron-walled defenses, distant from the front lines, ground forces maintain the line while these attacks keep draining Ukraine’s economy. Support is cut." "We will strip away what remains in the dirty chains and, in the end, the key will kneel at negotiation." "Together we hope to cooperate; we mark moments of strength daily." "That is a signal to the world that both nations move forward with resolve." "Coordination is not mere exchange; it is building trust and sharing objectives." "China must act with confidence and restraint, and there is no need to showcase force."

We will work towards a safer, more peaceful future through direct diplomacy until we find a final solution.

Countries with significant military influence, especially nuclear powers, have a special responsibility. Instead of escalating conflict, they should engage in direct dialogue, similar to how disputes were resolved in old Westerns.