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In a video discussion, Stefan Gardner argues that forensic evidence, particularly dust samples, will effectively end conspiracy theories about who fired the shot that killed Charlie Kirk. He contends that dust from the rocks on the roof will leave a unique signature that will be found on the killer’s clothes, the gun, and the shoes, making shoe tread and soil samples crucial to the investigation. Gardner also notes that dust and soil will be found on items connected to the killer’s lay-down on the roof and asserts that gun residue on the killer’s hands would be transferred to the steering wheel, making the killer’s car a major part of the evidence. Responding to this, another speaker, James Lee, mocks the idea that dust matching should come before bullet-to-gun matching, calling the discussion about dust a clownish distraction. The conversation emphasizes the broader expectation that trial evidence will concede to the narrative that the killer’s DNA and shoe dust will identify the perpetrator, while acknowledging public skepticism about the FBI’s presentation of evidence and the timing of disclosures. The speakers contrast the claimed forensic signatures with perceived gaps in the FBI’s narrative, arguing that the investigation will eventually reveal the gun, DNA, and other physical proof at trial. They anticipate that the evidence will demonstrate that the shooter’s shoes and vehicle contain trace material consistent with the crime scene and that the gun was used, but they express doubt about official explanations and the timing or availability of certain evidence, including video footage. A central theme is a critique of the FBI and their handling of the case: the speakers challenge the transparency of the investigation, suggesting that video footage and CCTV evidence should be released to restore public trust. They reference the demand for CCTV footage showing key actions: Tyler Robinson on campus, climbing onto the roof, taking the shot, and then fleeing. They assert there is video evidence of the shooting and question why it has not been released, noting claims that 3,000 people witnessed the incident live and that there is video evidence of planning and movement around the campus, including entrances and parking structures. The dialogue also touches on inconsistencies alleged in material evidence, such as a 30-06 round discussion, with the group arguing that even the smallest round would not plausibly produce the described wound at the distances claimed. They insist that standard investigative procedures would include sharing footage and autopsy details, and they demand transparency on the autopsy, CCTV, and video evidence from the crime scene. Overall, the speakers insist that the investigation should present complete video footage and corroborating evidence to verify the narrative surrounding Tyler Robinson and the murder of Charlie Kirk, labeling the current presentation as “slop.”

The video host discusses Tyler Robinson’s gag order and argues that nobody is likely to receive a phone call from Tyler Robinson. He says he reached out to Elizabeth Lane, a journalist trying to help Robinson obtain a new attorney, and she told him “absolutely not” that anyone will get a phone call with Robinson. He references Project Constitution claiming “exclusive,” and describes various sensational elements: a “tyler robinson breaks silence then hangs up fast,” a “blurry ghost on video,” a “phone call connected after seven minutes,” and an “audio only clip.” He asserts that Robinson identifies him, then faces “stone walls,” with only family or friends attempting to rally him, and that there are “attorney gag order or handlers warning him to shut the fuck up or else.” He likens the situation to Oswald “pinned in silence forever,” and expresses fear for Robinson’s wife and a lack of say in his own defense, as part of the alleged setup. The host acknowledges some agreement with others about not being able to secure a new attorney and the gag order being unprecedented, but maintains that no one will randomly get a phone call to Robinson. He speculates that Robinson and his family are involved and dismisses the situation as conspiratorial. He mentions the possibility that Robinson will not appear in a courtroom, suggesting a scenario where Robinson is harmed and removed from the case, referencing Epstein, and humorously posits Robinson might be in Israel afterward. The transcript then shifts to an excerpt from a separate segment where an attorney explains gag orders and their scope. Tyler Robinson’s latest court hearing is described as brief; Robinson did not attend in person, listening from the Utah County Jail. Lawyers focus on evidence from the crime scene, and a formal appearance was entered while rights to a preliminary hearing were not waived. Judge Tony Graff issues a gag order to prevent anyone involved from talking about the case to avoid pretrial publicity in a high-profile matter. There is discussion about “thousands of people” potentially affected, noting a large number of witnesses identified or to be identified. The court intends that as witnesses become known, the information will be conveyed to abide by the gag order. The judge emphasizes protecting Robinson’s constitutional rights and the victim’s rights. Outside the courtroom, lawyers declined comment. Robinson is expected back for an in-person hearing on October 30. The host returns to skepticism, claiming Robinson was on campus with multiple cameras, detailing alleged rapid movements and actions during the incident. He argues Robinson will not get a fair trial, predicting his death in a manner akin to “Epstein,” JFK, or MLK vibes, and suggests involvement by someone connected to Israel. He concludes that the case will end without a courtroom appearance and frames the whole narrative as a “joke.”

The speaker questions the audience about whether the answer to who killed Charlie Kirk and what happened on September 10 is “very clear.” Even among those who believe Tyler Robinson pulled the trigger, the speaker doubts the situation would be described as “very clear.” The speaker notes that Erica Kirk believes it to be clear, and suggests this represents the “final stop” of a PR campaign, with Erica being brought out to signal to the public that her judgment cannot be questioned. The speaker rejects what he calling emotional manipulation and wants to give people permission to avoid the trap of feeling obliged to share Erica Kirk’s conclusions simply because she is a widow and the public cannot cry or question her judgment. The speaker contends that the story presented thus far “makes little sense, if any sense,” and asserts that it “makes, I think, no sense.” To that end, he signals that later in the show they will discuss Tyler Robinson, who has now made his first in-person appearance in court. He frames this as “the good news” that Tyler Robinson exists, indicating a forthcoming discussion of his court appearance.

The speaker claims that there was a scandal where their campaign was spied on, but the other person disagrees and says there is no evidence. The speaker insists that there is evidence everywhere and wants it to be put on the show. The other person explains that they can't put on unverified information. The speaker continues to assert that their campaign was spied on and that it was caught. They accuse the other person of knowing this but not wanting to acknowledge it. The other person denies knowing anything about it.

Speaker 0 asks Speaker 1 if they gained any evidence after a certain point, to which Speaker 1 responds that they weren't collecting evidence. Speaker 0 then questions if they should be able to recall such information. Speaker 1 clarifies that they presented themselves as witnesses, not investigators, when they approached the FBI. Speaker 0 suggests that they made a complaint without evidence, and Speaker 1 disagrees, stating that they believed a crime had occurred in good faith. Speaker 0 interrupts and asks why they didn't talk to Ken Paxton, but Speaker 2 requests that Speaker 1 be allowed to finish answering. The transcript ends.

There is a substantial amount of discovery in this case; it is voluminous to say the least. The discussion touches on several intertwined aspects of pretrial proceedings and the management of information in a high-profile matter. Speaker 1 notes that his lawyers entered their formal appearance and declined to waive the right to a preliminary hearing. In connection with these procedural steps, Judge Tony Graff issued a gag order preventing anyone associated with the case from talking about it. The purpose of the gag order is to avoid pretrial publicity, which is already a significant problem given the case’s massive media exposure involving a high-profile figure such as Charlie Kirk. The judge’s objective, as stated, is to ensure a fairer trial for Robinson by limiting external commentary and potentially prejudicial publicity. The discussion then turns to the scope and identification of witnesses. There is a request for clarification regarding the phrase “all witnesses,” as there are a number of witnesses who have not yet been identified but would likely be used in the state’s case. This issue arose in the context of a large audience—specifically, an event in front of two to three thousand students at Utah Valley University—where the incident or relevant proceedings took place. The parties are in the process of identifying those witnesses, and those individuals are presently unknown. Speaker 2 responds by outlining how the court will handle this as the witnesses become known. The court will require that as each witness becomes known to either side, the information will be conveyed in a way that complies with the gag order. It is acknowledged that there may be many witnesses, and it is not expected that all witness identifications and related disclosures can be completed upfront before the process begins. The approach is to disclose witness information progressively as it becomes available, while maintaining compliance with the order. Speaker 1 reiterates that the judge wants to ensure the protection of Robinson’s constitutional rights as well as the rights of the victim. The exchange underscores a balance between managing a large, potentially unwieldy roster of witnesses and upholding the defendants’ and victims’ legal protections. The discussion closes with a brief, incomplete note from Counselor, indicating ongoing considerations and procedural safeguards as the case progresses.

Speaker 0 instructs someone to stay close behind. Speaker 1 asks "Carmilla" if she has anything to say to the victim's family and questions why she was armed at school, asking her to explain her self-defense and how it applies. Speaker 0 interjects, saying "Excuse me" repeatedly. Speaker 2 asks someone if they want to play to the community.

Speaker 0: Listen to this clip, Hannah, of what I said that was so dangerous and controversial. K. Keen Jeffries, a progressive congressman, literally tweeted, while the trial was going on, lock up Kyle Rittenhouse and throw away the key. And he's the same guy that rails against mass incarceration, and I agree with him on some of it. But now, before the trial's even over, they're calling for this guy to be locked up and throw away the key. Like, they've already reached their conclusion. Speaker 1: No. Didn't give him a fair shake. Speaker 0: It's a very ... And they lied about it being a white supremacy thing when it's a white dude that shot three other white people. It's the entire thing is bizarre and it's Out of self defense. Speaker 1: Right. Yes. Speaker 0: In my opinion. Speaker 1: That's most important. Speaker 0: The truth is he defended himself; he wasn't some mass shooter white supremacist, and he should be acquitted. Do you feel bullied? Speaker 1: I I don't. And honestly, I think that was the most milquetoast explanation of everything that went down.

Speaker 0 describes Skyler as having given about four different interviews online right after the Charlie Kirk assassination. She notes he is seen with glasses on top of his head, front row at the scene, and somehow sits on the Main Floor at the Charlie Kirk Memorial during the memorial service. She asks, “Who is this guy? How is this possible? And why are his interviews so odd?” She points out that on the day of the shooting Skyler was in the front row and near a bodyguard. Speaker 1 and Speaker 2 recount Skyler’s position: “Maybe 10 or 15 feet away when it happened. Close as he could.” They describe Skyler with sunglasses on his head, and a Charlie Kirk bodyguard in front of him, with Skyler off to the side in the corner when Charlie began taking questions. They note the bodyguard is directly in front of Charlie, Skyler to the side, matching Skyler’s own account of being “front row, Noel in front of him,” with a bodyguard to his left and one in front of him. They say Skyler was “front row and center.” Speaker 0 then says Skyler later appeared sitting on the Main Floor at the Charlie Kirk Memorial, with a floor pass for a press conference, literally “maybe 10 or so rows from the front of the stage.” They claim this is documented on Skyler’s Facebook page. They mention Skyler’s Facebook shows two, perhaps “two point, I think, k” followings, with from 2018 to 02/2025 only about seven posts and about 10 pictures, implying a sparse content profile for a “digital creator.” Speaker 3 describes Skyler’s earlier claim about getting into the stadium: “Just made it to the stadium. There is an unlimited amount of security, Secret service, military, police, empty. Steel barricades all around. … There’s been people waiting in line since 05:30 in the morning.” He says Skyler went past multiple security layers to obtain a media badge and a floor pass, and then ended up on the Main Floor “a few rows back to the Charlie Kirk Memorial.” The speakers question how he could gain access and yet appear to be late, then have a media pass and seating positions. Speaker 4 adds, “So, again, why go into detail acting as if you were late, you didn’t even know you were gonna get in, yet somehow you end up with a passing all these checkpoints to get a media pass around your deck, end up on the First, you know, Main Floor just a few rows back to the Charlie Kirk Memorial that day. It’s just like it’s a big act, a big show that this guy's putting on. It’s like he was handpicked to do all these interviews. He was handpicked to have front row that day because he was up, you know, farther up in the crowd before Charlie got there.” Speaker 4 closes with a segment featuring a clip of another person describing a mythic, imagery-laden interpretation: “An indecision night. I photoshopped in my mind. I photoshopped the blood away. I photoshopped Charlie, sat him back up, put his smile back on, and rewound the tape… I rewound the bullet going back up into the rifle. I stuck a flower inside the rifle.”

The speaker asserts: "starts within five seconds, maybe fifteen seconds tops of Charlie Kirk being assassinated" and "This is the CCTV footage we want." He asks, "why is it that you will not or you are refusing to release this video right here of fifteen seconds prior to Charlie Kirk or prior to what you did release?" He adds, "This dude is sprinting off the roof." He continues, "we went around the campus, and there's another camera." He notes there is "CCTV footage that literally shows the would have shown Tyler shooting at Charlie because the camera is literally right behind Charlie Kirk," and asks why that CCTV footage isn't released. He also asks, "What are on these CCTV cameras? Was there another shooter farther back that you don't wanna show us?" Finally, he asks, "What is this? This literally looks like a camera, a CCTV camera completely removed from the side of the building. Care to comment?"

The speaker questions the FBI's practice of tipping off the subject of a search warrant before it is executed. They inquire about the FBI's contact with the protective detail of individuals and the potential undermining of investigations. The speaker expresses frustration with the lack of answers and accuses the FBI of a cover-up. Director Wray requests a 5-minute recess. The speaker acknowledges the frustration but explains that policies prevent discussing ongoing investigations. They mention that these policies were strengthened under the previous administration. The speaker concludes by stating that there is an obligation to call out corruption.

The video discusses Tyler Robinson’s gag order and the possibility of someone calling him, citing Elizabeth Lane, a journalist trying to help Robinson get a new attorney. Lane says a phone call to Robinson is absolutely not possible. The video references Project Constitution claiming exclusivity and presents sensational claims: “Tyler Robinson breaks silence then hangs up fast,” a blurry “handers threatening him to stay quiet,” a seven-minute connected video call where Robinson’s face is blurred and an audio clip where he identifies the commentator and then “stone walls,” with family and friends trying to rally him and describing a “gag order or handlers warning him to shut the fuck up or else.” The video content includes a “post Kennedy hit” analogy and questions about Robinson’s defense, suggesting he won’t get a courtroom appearance and that the situation resembles a conspiracy. The video also presents a claim that Tyler Robinson’s wife has no say in his defense. Parallel to these claims, the transcript introduces a news-style segment with several speakers (Speaker 1, Speaker 2, Speaker 3) about Robinson’s latest court hearing. The hearing was brief; Robinson wasn’t present, listening from the Utah County Jail. Lawyers focused on evidence from the crime scene. There is a substantial amount of discovery. Robinson’s lawyers filed a formal appearance and did not waive the right to a preliminary hearing. Judge Tony Graff issued a gag order preventing anyone associated with the case from talking about it to avoid pretrial publicity, given the high-profile nature of the case in Utah. The judge aims to protect Robinson’s constitutional rights and the rights of the victim, and the court will rule on how to handle witnesses who have not yet been identified. The witnesses, potentially numbering in the thousands, include individuals who spoke to an audience of 2,000–3,000 students at Utah Valley University. As witnesses become known to each side, the information will be conveyed to comply with the gag order. Outside the courtroom, counsel declined to comment. A further hearing is scheduled in person for October 30. The initial speaker critiques the notion of a fair trial in Robinson’s case, asserting that Robinson was captured on numerous campus cameras during the incident, from entering the roof area to firing a shot and retreating, with a rapid sequence of movements and a subsequent drop-off of the weapon. The speaker argues that Robinson will not reach a courtroom and predicts he will be “Epstein’d” and removed, comparing the scenario to JFK and MLK assassinations and suggesting involvement by someone connected to Israel. The speaker claims that this is a “joke” and believes Tyler Robinson will die before trial, asserting that “nobody’s buying it.” The overall tone blends skepticism about a fair trial with conspiratorial accusations about the handling of Robinson’s case.

Speaker 0 asserts openness to many topics but not to the theory that Tyler Robinson didn’t kill Charlie, and questions who else was involved or if there were other voices in the row. They state the evidence in the case is incredibly watertight and express a desire to focus on broader issues rather than debating that point. They call attention to the rise of left-wing violence, mental health illness in the country, and young people on the progressive side turning to Mangioneism and assassination culture, suggesting they can solve political disputes by justifying violence. They accuse the current discussion of veering into rabbit trails and acknowledge good-faith questions, while noting that they’ve been lied to. They emphasize the harm caused to their team, staff, and movement by the issue, describing it as carnage, and express a wish not to see more of that and to move through the situation sooner rather than later.

Stephen Gardner and Jack Buzovic argue that the smoking gun will be the geolocation data next to the DNA evidence on the rifle. They say, essentially, you steal my car and commit a crime, you’ll likely find my DNA in the vehicle and on the trigger, so now we’re going to trust some expert to provide magical geolocation data. They question how Tyler Robinson could be involved and suggest this should be a single, big government conspiracy if he didn’t actually take the shot. They insist CCTV video would show Tyler Robinson moving through the parking garage, onto the roof, and through various locations, and that the investigation should not avoid showing the video. They ask how a juror would be convinced without video footage when there are twenty different videos, and whether geolocation data could hurt the case when a murder has been committed. They complain about having to trust another expert and mention past high-profile investigations. They demand to see CCTV video showing Tyler Robinson walking across the campus, onto the roof, getting into his car, running through neighborhoods, because all that has been presented is “slop.” Ryan Mehta introduces this segment as a critique of the presented evidence. Speaker 1 (questioning the forensic approach) asks about cell phone tracking and geofencing data, noting that the same method was used in January 6 to determine who was on the steps or on the lawn. They ask what was found regarding that data in this case. Speaker 2 responds that the case will reveal with great clarity whether Tyler Robinson was in the Orem area and whether the texts that many have questions about were sent from Orem to Lance Twigg, and whether Lance Twigg was in Southern Utah or in Orem. The main point is that people are asking how he could have known given the terrain and that Google Maps could not have allowed planning of the murder. They say the data will show paths, including whether he went the day before or weeks before, and will track all of that. Joseph Scott Morgan told them they would be able to track him from 8 Hundredth Street down through the tunnel, up around the Losey Building, up the stairs, onto the roof, from the roof out to the roofline, take the shot, jump off the Losey Building, run into the woods. They mention conspiracy videos claiming he was spotted at a cafe on security footage; some claimed the cafe owner saw him on security cameras, while others claimed it wasn’t consistent with a murderer’s behavior. They argue the FBI tracked him to that location, and that the next morning at 07:15 AM, a Cedar City Maverick gas station records his credit card use and follows his phone, his movements home, visits to Lance, and visits to his parents, with all phone calls, texts, and other data available. The forensic expert, Joseph Scott Morgan, asserts that next to the gun, the cell phone data will be the thing that ties Tyler Robinson directly to the person on that building, and there is doubt among some about trusting the FBI. The discussion ends with the assertion that geotracking will provide the crucial link.

In the discussion, the speakers focus on forensic details and the handling of evidence surrounding the Charlie Kirk case and Tyler Robinson. Stefan Gardner is cited as stating that “dust samples alone will go a long way in ending speculation about Tyler Robinson fired the shot that killed Charlie Kirk,” arguing that the dust on the rocks will have a unique signature and will be on the killer’s clothes, gun, and shoes. The dust and soil samples are expected to show dust on the tread of shoes and soil where the gun was laid, and gun residue on the hands from handling the weapon. A forensic expert is quoted saying the roof where the shooting occurred was covered in pebbles and rocks, so dust signatures will be found on the shooter’s clothes, gun, and shoes, and that the car is also a major part of the evidence due to dust, soil, and gun residue on the steering wheel from the shooter’s hands. There is discussion about the sequence of events: the shooter allegedly disassembling or reassembling the gun, laying down a towel, firing, rolling up the gun, and leaving within about fourteen seconds to flee into the woods. The possibility is mentioned that the shooter could be identified by dust on the gear and by the car evidence. James Lee responds to the crowd, accusing others of focusing on dust samples while dismissing the need to first match the bullet to a gun, calling out the discussion as clownish. The conversation anticipates trial evidence including shoe DNA and other forensic marks, with a sense that official video footage might be suppressed or lost while experts testify about the evidence. The speakers criticize the FBI narrative, arguing that none of the FBI’s presented evidence has made sense, particularly challenging the 30-06 caliber discussion. They reference a prior demonstration with a 30-06 round fired into a setup of meat to simulate a neck wound, a steel plate, and a two-liter bottle, asserting that even the smallest 30-06 round would not produce the described result at the distance claimed, and suggesting Tyler Robinson would have been inside 150 yards. There is insistence that video footage exists and should be released to restore trust, including CCTV footage showing Tyler Robinson’s movements on campus—climbing onto the roof, taking the shot, and sprinting away. They call for CCTV footage and autopsy video to be released, along with video showing Tyler Robinson at the crime scene for four hours, arguing that the investigation would be more transparent if these materials were made public rather than kept from the public eye. The speakers express distrust of the FBI and other agencies, alleging deep state manipulation and claiming that video and DNA evidence could be forged or misrepresented, while demanding concrete, visible evidence in the form of footage and autopsy details.

It is not unusual for a crime to generate publicity. Ultimately, a judge will decide at the time of trial. The speaker wants this to happen in Collin County and for Collin County citizens to decide this. The speaker no longer understands it. Their personal address has been exposed, and they have received graphic and racist threats. That would not be something that could be done even if desired.

The speakers discuss the need for defense counsel to have access to the video evidence in the case. They suggest a stepwise process to ensure all information reaches defense lawyers. One speaker mentions concerns about public release due to nefarious organizations and threats to witnesses. Another speaker believes that the evidence should be made available to the public to identify those involved. They mention the presence of a pipe bomber and the refusal of the DOJ to disclose undercover agents. The speakers emphasize the importance of transparency to uncover the truth.

The speaker explains that in the three months since Charlie Kirk was murdered, they have avoided public commentary on the murder investigation out of care for Charlie and respect for the people involved, many of whom they know personally and admire. They emphasize that their goal is truth and justice, and they would not criticize anyone sincerely trying to uncover what happened, recognizing that good motives can lead to wrong conclusions. They recount a three-hour conversation with Theo Vaughan that touched on distrust of the FBI. They clarify this did not mean they accused anyone of involvement in Charlie Kirk’s murder, but it gave them the chance to state that they do not trust the FBI. They distinguish personal trust in individuals (e.g., Dan Bongino, whom they like, and Cash Patel) from trust in the FBI as an institution, noting that parts of the FBI can act independently within a large bureaucracy, separate from leadership. The speaker argues that distrust is not about a general attack on political leadership but about systemic issues. They reference the 2024 election as evidence that major institutions may be corrupt or rot, and they point to January 6 as, in their view, a setup in which the FBI played a key role. They question whether everyone involved in that setup has faced consequences. They insist that no American is morally obligated to believe everything the government says, especially given a history of the FBI's alleged crimes, illicit participation in politics, manufacturing crimes, or distorting justice—claims they assert as part of the FBI’s track record, which, in their view, is counter to its mission to obtain justice through facts and then explain its conclusions. They argue that it is not enough to have government officials declare the truth; the public has the right or obligation to demand proof. A central concern is that the investigation into Charlie Kirk’s murder could be overshadowed by debates about what happened, allowing the FBI to go unchallenged or unaccountable. The speaker asserts that the FBI should tell, show, and convince the public about what happened, rather than hiding behind national security or confidential sources. Ultimately, they commit to avoiding statements they don’t understand, to staying out of the case, but to maintaining love for Charlie and a desire for justice, while urging others to remain skeptical. They conclude that skepticism is a duty and not something to be ashamed of.

Two speakers discuss a tip about video footage of Tyler Robinson. The informant says "I've been trying to get in touch with Candace Owens" and that "the FBI came to my job... and informed me that his phone pinged in this parking lot." They say the FBI was "going in her shopping center... to retrieve video footage" and shows "Tyler Robinson's car pulling into the parking lot" with a "white SUV" nearby. They claim "This video specifically doesn't make sense" because a person who just committed an assassination would not linger in a parking lot. They reference "surveillance footage" from the FBI in Utah that shows Tyler jumping off the roof and argue the rifle was "reassembled again." They cite Candace Owens' insider saying Tyler never admitted to being on UVU campus and question why law enforcement has not released the full footage, suggesting possible involvement of others.

Carmela is asked if she has anything to say to the victim's family. She is questioned about why she was armed and present at the school. She is asked to explain her self-defense and how her actions constitute self-defense.

- I recognized an individual and 'have taken down the cameras minute four after Charlie was shot? The back camera of all the ones when you take the front camera.' - 'I've never seen that. He's never been behind me at an event. He's never been lingering around me at an event.' - I asked about 'his presence behind Charlie' and 'the mysterious phone call ... minute three after Charlie was assassinated.' - He told me explicitly that 'they were trying something new that day. Like, it was something new. Charlie's super ambitious. And on the AV thing, they were trying something new, and they wanted to be able to feed it back instantly to Arizona.' - 'None of it makes sense to me because these events are typically livestreamed. But again, something new. Okay?'

Carmela is asked what she would like to say to the victims and the family of the victims. She is then asked why she was armed and to explain her self-defense, with the speaker questioning how it constitutes self-defense.

Carmela is asked what she would like to say to the victims' families. She is then asked why she was armed and how it was self-defense.

Speaker 0 argues that when information isn’t released directly, it leads to questions about Erica’s potential involvement, but she believes Erica had no connection. She says that implying otherwise would victimize the victim, noting that Erica lost her husband and children. She recalls being with Erica at the White House and emphasizes the personal devastation if such a tragedy happened to one’s spouse or children, framing it as a devastating situation.