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The speaker watched the debate between Dave Smith and Douglas Murray on Rogan. The speaker says they are an American chauvinist who only cares about their own country and wishes other countries well. They believe countries should defend themselves and if a nation can't survive without being propped up by another government, like the U.S., then it shouldn't exist. Speaker 0 asserts Israel cannot exist without U.S. support, citing its nuclear program, weapons, and economy. They claim Israel's lobbying efforts in the U.S. prove this dependence. Speaker 1 believes Israel can handle itself. They reiterate that any country that fundamentally cannot exist without being subsidized by American taxpayers should not exist, and in fact, already does not exist.

This conversation centers on Israel, lobbying, and US policy. Speaker 0 says he’s been very pro Israel and defender of its right to defend itself, but has 'no skin whatsoever in defending any lobbyist group,' and has declined repeated invitations to go to Israel. He notes mounting pressure to stay aligned and that he’s not on Hamas’ side, though his views have shifted since 10/08/23. Speaker 1 explains APAC is 'not registered under FARA' and describes freshman trips to Israel, meetings with government members. He notes that '3.8, billion dollars in funding for Israel' is an annual decision, that Israel is 'less than 400,000,000,000 in debt,' and that Israelis have 'government funded health care' and 'government funded college.' He questions why the US funds this given its own economic strain, citing that 'we buy money from your defense contractors' and that Israel can buy from Israeli defense contractors.

Speaker 0: Were I a Jew, I would be a Zionist. And my father pointed out to me, I did not need to be a Jew to be a Zionist, for I am. Israel is essential to security of Jews worldwide. Speaker 1: That this is not theoretical. This is not just about things that happen on Twitter. Antisemitism kills. Hate kills. Speaker 2: I come before you not only as The United States Secretary of State, but also as a Jew. My grandfather, Maurice Blinken, fled pogroms in Russia. My stepfather, Samuel Pizar, survived concentration camps, Auschwitz, Dachau, Maidanic. Speaker 3: We have a common agenda to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons and preventing Iran's aggression, maintaining the security and prosperity of this region, and seeking to expand the circle of peace. Speaker 4: On October 7, Hamas terrorists murdered nearly 1,200 people, including over 40 Americans, and kidnapped hundreds of civilians. They perpetrated the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. Speaker 5: Holocaust. Holocaust. My grandfather fled Nazi Germany. Fled Nazi Germany. If we wanna create peace in the Middle East, resolve the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, we don't need boycotts. We need business. We don't need divestment. We need investment. We don't need sanctions. We need startups. We need startups. They met with several Israeli companies looking to expand into The United States. Speaker 1: Actual, literal, no shit, Jews will not replace us anti Semites as very fine people. Speaker 6: I support Israel's ability to defend itself. Speaker 7: It's about time we stop those of us who support as most of us do, Israel and this body for apologizing for our support for Israel. There's no apology to be made. None. It is the best $3,000,000,000 investment we make. $3,000,000,000 investment we make. Speaker 8: two of us were brought together by Apex Education Foundation for a mission to Israel. We hear the call of our Jewish brothers and sisters. Israel was this place I had always felt an, I don't know, unexplainable pull. Speaker 5: And the Jewish people have been the recipients of boycotts for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Speaker 6: So I just had a frank and constructive meeting with prime minister Netanyahu. I told him that I will always ensure that Israel is able to defend itself, including from Iran and Iran backed militias such as Hamas and Hezbollah. Speaker 3: Israelis do not need to be lectured about the importance of peace by foreign leaders. Speaker 9: Why does Israel need our help? We need to get out of their way. Speaker 6: I've said it many times, but it bears repeating. Israel has a right to defend itself. Speaker 2: The message that I bring to Israel is this. You may be strong enough on your own to defend yourself, but as long as America exists, you will never ever have to. We will always be there by your side. Speaker 1: He is a friend of the Jewish people by aligning not even with Israel, but with a certain kind of politics within Israel. And I just think that the American Jewish community are a lot smarter than that. Speaker 7: And even suggested breaking from the long standing US policies on settlements. Jerusalem. Jerusalem. Speaker 9: I was one of the few in congress that said it's none of our business, and Israel should take care of themselves. Speaker 8: Perhaps he does not know that I am the child of a holocaust survivor. Perhaps he does not know that my mother lost almost all her family at the hands of the Nazis. At the hands of the Nazis. Speaker 9: Israel has 200, 300 nuclear missiles, they can take care of themselves. Why should we commit? We don't even have a treaty with Israel. We don't even have a treaty with Israel. Speaker 7: Were there not an Israel, The United States Of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interest in the region. Speaker 9: Why why do we have this automatic commitment that we're gonna send our kids and send our money endlessly, to to Israel?

NBC News reports that U.S. intelligence is worried about Israelis spying on top Trump administration officials, a concern the speakers say has long been known and reported. One speaker says they spoke with or communicated with an individual named as being among those targeted for espionage and that there is “a lot of anger in the Pentagon” that the government is not doing more. The speaker says at least one report indicated the concern had been elevated to critical after initially being high, while “nothing has been done at all.” The speaker adds that they are “lucky we’re even getting the reports out.” The speaker cites names allegedly involved in the espionage targeting, including Steve Witkoff, saying it is striking because Witkoff is described as being on the phone during negotiations with Benjamin Netanyahu. The speaker also references other Pentagon officials mentioned in the reporting, including officials characterized as “pro-American” and “America first folks,” stating this is “not a surprise.” The speaker emphasizes that the reported activity goes beyond spying and is “espionage,” describing it as the kind of action that would prompt immediate crisis-level response if conducted by another country against senior U.S. administration officials. They say no action has been taken to stop it, and that this is contributing to a narrative about who is “calling the shots.” The speaker also highlights a detail of timing and suppression: the information “apparently … hit the office of the Director of National Intelligence,” but was reportedly suppressed until after Congress voted on Section 224 of the NDAA, which the speaker says would link and codify the American military with the Israeli military. The speaker says it was released after that vote. They further claim that Congress is portrayed as willing participants in the arrangement, implying that the priority is linking Israel into the U.S. military structure. The speaker attributes to Benjamin Netanyahu personal priority for such a partnership, saying Netanyahu has stated that the U.S. funding of $3.8 billion is not necessary because the militaries will be linked and that the U.S. would wean off due to the partnership. The speaker concludes by arguing that such a military linkage should not occur, asserting it benefits Israel at America’s expense and saying U.S. blood has been shed because of the war they associate with Netanyahu, which they describe as directly against American interest. The speaker calls for the arrangement to end.

The speaker says the United States is Israel's last ally besides the UK and that Americans lack perspective due to lies from the political class and media. Citing Haley's 2023 remark: 'Last thing we need to do is to tell Israel what to do. The only thing we should be doing is supporting them and eliminating Hamas. It is not that Israel needs America. America needs Israel.' They assert: 'Israel could not survive without The United States' and that 'every dollar that goes to the Israeli military from The United States is a dollar that the nation of Israel can spend on its own people.' They claim Haley was never asked to explain how that could be true, and warn that discussing geopolitics invites accusations of antisemitism, creating a 'state of perpetual intimidation' and no honest conversation.

“If their government came out and said, we have a five year plan to decouple from USAID, would that help people's view of Israel if they said, hey, we want to be self reliant? Absolutely.” “We're now gonna decouple over the next five years and and basically transition.” “319,000,000,000 being sent to Israel over all these years, that's comparable to the amount we've sent to Ukraine.” “I believe Israel has a right to exist. I believe that they are the only state in that region with the right to exist.” “But why are we treating them differently than any other ally? Should we not be judging them, holding them to the same standard?” “Do you find it persuasive when the Israeli tourism board is bragging about how many gay pride parades they have in Tel Aviv?” “No.”

Speaker 1 acknowledges that intelligence sharing between the U.S. and Israel is not total and that allies spy on each other, including domestically. Speaker 1, identifying as conservative, says this is expected because people act in their rational self-interest. Speaker 0 asks if it is in America's interest for Israel to spy on the U.S., including on the president. Speaker 1 responds that the close alliance with Israel provides huge benefits to the U.S. Speaker 0 presses on the issue of spying, asking why an American lawmaker wouldn't tell a client state that spying on the U.S. is not allowed. Speaker 0 expresses that it is weird not to say that, but Speaker 1 seems unable to.

With the money that we, the taxpayers, have given Israel over the last seventy five years, they are now able to give families a monthly child allowance for each child they have, income support, unemployment benefits, housing assistance, free health care, and free education through university. So I ask again, why are we okay making it possible for Israelis to do that. But when it comes to our country, a whole group of people are totally against the idea of universal health care and free education. I need someone to explain to me why it's okay to fund their abilities to do that. No ally of The United States should be allowed to do or say whatever they want without any consequences from us, not when we give them billions of dollars every single year. And none of what I'm saying is even delving into the fact that what the Israeli government is doing with all the military assistance that we've given them.

Speaker argues that "Israel's really last remaining ally of size other than The UK is The United States" and that the relationship carries a "huge cost," while Americans "marinate in lies" about it from "our political class" and the media. Blame is placed on "our elected leaders" who "continuously lie to us about the nature of this relationship, its significance, and they do it generationally." Citing Nikki Haley's 2023 debate, he notes: "Last thing we need to do is to tell Israel what to do... The only thing we should be doing is supporting them and eliminating Hamas. It is not that Israel needs America. America needs Israel." He asserts: "Israel could not survive without The United States." "Every dollar that goes to the Israeli military from The United States is a dollar that the nation of Israel can spend on its own people." "There is no world in which America needs Israel more than Israel needs The United States." He laments a "state of perpetual intimidation" that prevents an honest conversation.

Speaker 0 argues that "Israel's our greatest ally. We should never ask anything of them." They echo: "Protecting Israel's most important thing. They're our only real ally." They question, "If they're our only real ally, why does Israel have a long history of transferring military technology, including American military technology to China? To China?" and ask, "Why is China running the Port Of Haifa, Israel's biggest port?" They claim "From Israel's perspective, we're not a close ally" and "The loyalty is not requited. It's one way." They say Netanyahu "has pushed it too far" and that "the governor of Israel, in particular, the prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, has pushed it too far." They add "I control Donald Trump. I control the United States Congress. I control The United States." They cite Trump on West Bank annexation: "No. I will not allow it. It's not gonna happen." and "I will not allow Israel to annex the West Bank." The speaker concludes "It's been enough. It's time to stop" and that "This is why Donald Trump has lost support over this Israel question."

Why are we, as American taxpayers, funding social programs in Israel that many Americans oppose here at home? With our tax dollars, Israel can provide its citizens with monthly child allowances, income support, unemployment benefits, housing assistance, free healthcare, and free education through university. Yet, many of us are against universal healthcare and free education in our own country. It doesn't make sense to me that we can fund these things for Israelis but not for our own people. And this doesn't even consider the military assistance we provide, which seems to allow Israel to act without consequences, despite our financial support.

The discussion centers on an arrangement involving Israel’s missile systems and technology, with one participant describing Israel as being framed as doing the United States a favor by allowing access to Israel’s technology “for the Iron Dome level of stuff.” One participant counters that Israel “is getting a lot of that” and that the relationship is not accurately characterized as one-sided generosity, adding that Israel has received “a lot” of military technology and weaponry. One participant argues that Israel is not the “giver” in the relationship, especially in intelligence, describing Israel as “the taker” and the U.S. as “the host,” referencing John Kiriakou and others from their perspective. They say that everyone they have spoken with, including people they mention (including Kiriakou and Bustamante), has told them versions of this same idea, concluding that the notion of Israel’s role as purely a nice thing for U.S. benefit “doesn’t feel like what I’ve seen in reality.” They also address the demeanor of a media-trained individual they spoke with, describing him as “impressively media trained” and “unflappable,” even while being pressed. The conversation includes uncertainty about specifics, including the formalization of Israeli companies being on U.S. soil, which the speaker says they “didn’t quite still get.” A key moment is the speaker stating that “none of us want this,” calling it unpopular and saying they feel the U.S. is “teaming up with the most diabolical country.” They describe the other person reacting with “interesting,” while still referencing Iran as a threat. The speaker contrasts the framing, saying that the war is branded with Iran even though Iran is the one attacked, and that the person attacked gets branded with the label “Iran war.” The speaker concludes by saying the situation is “ass backwards,” asserting that the narrative outcome was predictable, and that objective observers would see that it was “not in our interest.” They argue the framing places “people” listening in a position where the U.S. has to “defend the Iranian regime,” which they say no one wants to do.

Israel is a democracy and an ally. One speaker believes Israel has a powerful stranglehold on the American government, controlling members of the House and Senate. They claim Israel has the U.S. involved in wars of little or no interest, bankrupting the nation and resulting in American children returning in body bags. The speaker asserts that Israel controls much of U.S. foreign and domestic policy, influencing the media and commerce, and that they "own the congress." They allege Wolfowitz, as under secretary of defense, manipulated President Bush to go back into Iraq and pushed to move into Iran. When asked if they are an anti-Semite, the speaker denies it, stating that this is what they will say. They claim the U.S. has a one-sided foreign policy in the Mideast, alienating Arabs who then export violence to America. They state Israel gets approximately $15 billion a year from American taxpayers, which is $30,000 for every man, woman, and child.

Speaker argues the United States is Israel's last large ally besides the UK, with a large cost and limited perspective due to lies from the political class and media. They blame U.S. elected leaders for decades of misrepresentation. Citing Nikki Haley's 2023 Republican primary debate, the quote: "Last thing we need to do is to tell Israel what to do. The only thing we should be doing is supporting them and eliminating Hamas. It is not that Israel needs America. America needs Israel." The speaker contends this is inverted: "Israel could not survive without The United States." American backing funds Israeli wars and social services; "every dollar that goes to the Israeli military from The United States is a dollar that the nation of Israel can spend on its own people." Haley wasn't asked to explain, and questioning geopolitics is feared as antisemitic, leading to "a state of perpetual intimidation" and "We have not had an honest conversation about this ever."

Speaker 0 raises a question about accountability for Israel and mentions Jeffrey Epstein’s dealings with Mossad. Speaker 1 asks, without specifics, whether there are forces that tried to influence him to stop what he’s doing now. Speaker 0 responds that they wouldn’t vote for foreign aid and foreign war funding, and they were upset because he said no. He states: “I’m not voting to fund the Ukraine war ever,” and “Israel’s doing just fine. We don’t need to give them a penny, not a single penny, nor do we need to give it to any other country, but they get mad at me for that.”

Speaker 0 says a piece about Israel’s “obscene treatment” of Speaker 0’s country has an obvious takeaway that America’s “special ally is not actually an ally,” and that NBC News did not want readers to realize this. Speaker 0 claims the report’s authors repeatedly inserted “globalist propaganda” into the story, including the neocon talking point that Israelis are America’s “special friends,” while still presenting “eye-opening” information about Israel spying. Speaker 0 argues that throughout the entire NBC News piece, there is continued praise for Israel as “our greatest ally” and “special friend.” Speaker 1 says the piece lays praise on Israel and is about Israel spying, which they find “reprehensible.” Speaker 1 describes decades of belief that Israel is America’s best ally, an “island of democracy” amid “sea of chaos” in the Middle East, and that many Jewish people Speaker 1 personally knew seemed “like really good people.” Speaker 1 says that as “growing physical evidence” has emerged that Israel is “not quite who we thought they were” and that Israel “definitely” abuses America, the situation has become normalized. Speaker 1 claims that even when things have come out, “no action has been taken,” leading Israel to be “a little bit more bold,” doing actions “out in the open.” Speaker 1 cites an example involving Netanyahu and Lebanon: Speaker 1 says Netanyahu stated that a stop to fighting in Lebanon is a “non-negotiable requirement” for Iran to end the war, and that Speaker 1 believes Netanyahu will “do what I want anyway,” even if President Trump intervenes. Speaker 1 says Speaker 1 expects Trump may “hold off for a day or two,” but that Israel “they’re fighting again today.” Speaker 1 asks why the U.S. continues to support Israel and provide it with ammunition, weapons, political cover, and diplomatic cover “to keep doing things directly antithetical to our interests?” Speaker 0 responds, “It’s so frustrating.”

Speaker 1 describes the damage: at least three bases in the Gulf have been devastated, including the fifth fleet headquarters; satellite imagery suggests the base in Bahrain looks like Gaza and has been “moonscape.” He says he doesn’t know about casualties because he isn’t sure if the base was evacuated, but the imagery indicates it has been flattened. He notes the base was expensive and long a hub for the U.S. Navy in the Middle East and has been “completely taken offline.” He mentions a Middle East expert who doubts a quick rebuild, suggesting that Arabs will be irate and not want the U.S. to build back in their countries after the war ends. Speaker 0 adds that the Arabs “give us billions in foreign investment” and in exchange the U.S. promised to protect them, but asks why we would defend them given the current actions. Speaker 1 states there are credible reports that whatever air defense systems were in Arab countries were sent over to Israel and left American bases and people vulnerable, implying the U.S. prioritized protecting Israeli targets over U.S. troops. He reflects that, a year or two ago, he wouldn’t have believed this, but after watching a Huckabee interview, he thinks the United States is being led by its proxy and calls it the proxy being the housekeeper while the U.S. is the homeowner. He says the U.S. is “being led around the nose… by what should be its proxy.” Speaker 0 questions the dynamic, saying, “they’re the housekeeper. We’re the homeowner,” and asks for clarity on the situation. Speaker 1 adds a personal note: a Gulf-based colleague sent a State Department warning to get out, with the message that people are “on your own” for evacuation—no flights provided. He contrasts this with the British government evacuating its people “no questions asked” until twenty-four hours ago. He concludes that the sole superpower is picking a fight with Iran’s missile city and not providing exfiltration for its people, and asserts that this indicates a decline of the empire. He mentions that the Chinese view is that their time is at hand due to what he calls national suicide with this insanity.

More trouble, no one has caused more harm, no one has caused more wars in my lifetime than Israel. Israel is not our ally. At this point, they are our enemy. They take money from us. They incriminate us to the whole world. They implicate us in their immoral war crimes. No one has hurt this country more than Israel has. Israel is our top enemy. Enemy.

Speaker 3 said he has been told that criticizing AIPAC makes him anti-Semitic. Speaker 1 called that “ridiculous.” Speaker 3 said it feels good to have concern for one’s country and asked whether AIPAC represents a “cutting in line of prioritization” away from the American people—meaning that although Americans vote and are citizens, a separate group gets higher priority. Speaker 0 responded that the point of a PAC is to represent a group, but said there is a “huge problem” with allowing a group that does not represent American interests to influence people who are supposed to represent Americans. Speaker 0 said he has previously stated that he thinks only “like 20 representatives between Senate and the House” fully do the work of the American people without the interests of some group pulling their sway. Speaker 1 said that “over since 1948” the amount amounts to “$319 billion adjusted to inflation” and argued that there are multiple things the money could have been spent on at home instead of military strikes for Israel. Speaker 1 said the money could have been better allocated toward supporting an economy that would help the current generation afford homes. Speaker 3 asked what else would improve views if Israel’s government presented a “five-year plan to decouple from us aid,” including moving toward self-reliance, and noted that Israel is a rich country that has balanced its budget and money in a sovereign wealth fund. He asked whether people would think more highly of Israel if it stopped relying on U.S. aid and if the issue were talked about less. Speaker 2 agreed that people should be less focused on labeling, saying that the word “racism” is used when there is disagreement and that “we just have to call them a name.” Speaker 2 said he does not think people are anti-Semitic, arguing that people “just can’t agree with them” and can’t “prove them wrong,” so they “throw a word out” like “anti-Semitic” because they think the U.S. should stop sending money there. Speaker 3 said, “thank you” and noted that some people he tells “must get more aggressive.”

The discussion centers on US support for Israel, with Speaker 0 stating that the US provides Israel with $3 billion annually in military aid, which benefits US national security through intelligence sharing, particularly from Mossad. Speaker 1 questions the cost of military actions to protect Israel and whether Israel spies on the US, including the president. Speaker 0 acknowledges that allies spy on each other and defends the alliance with Israel as beneficial for the US. The conversation shifts to AIPAC, with Speaker 1 questioning whether it lobbies on behalf of the Israeli government and why it isn't registered as a foreign lobby. Speaker 0 denies this, stating that AIPAC is an American lobby that promotes a strong US-Israeli relationship. Speaker 1 suggests AIPAC's goals are shaped by the Israeli government, while Speaker 0 denies coordination and accuses Speaker 1 of being obsessed with Israel. Speaker 1 denies being anti-Semitic and defends their right to question foreign influence on US politics.

The discussion centers on how politicization of intelligence has manifested in different eras, comparing past and present administrations. Speaker 0 asks whether the politicized weapons claims about Iraq and the CIA’s statements in the 1990s can be compared to today’s politicization of intelligence under John Ratcliffe and Tulsi Gabbard as head of DNI, arguing it is much worse now because of the mediocrity of those in control of key agencies. Speaker 1 counters by recalling the 1980s, noting that there was significant politicization of the Soviet threat to justify Reagan’s defense buildup, and adds that this is why he testified against Robert Gates in 1991. He asserts that politicization is bad, and insists that the current situation is worse than in the past. Speaker 1 explains: “It’s Because I look at the people who are ahead of these groups. Come on. Let’s be serious.” He targets the leadership of the director of national intelligence, the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security, and the CIA, saying, “Have you ever seen a cabinet in The United States of such mediocrity, of such venality?” He emphasizes his background, stating, “I haven’t,” and that nothing compares to what is going on now, warning that “a lot of damage is being done to The United States and to the constitution of The United States and to the importance of separation of powers and the importance of rule of law and the importance of checks and balances. This is very serious stuff.” Speaker 0 attempts to steer toward historical figures like Robert Maxwell, but Speaker 1 dismisses that concern as off point, insisting he is making a point about Israel. The exchange then shifts to U.S. support for Israel, with Speaker 1 asserting that “Israel gets what it wants from The United States. It gets it from democratic presidents and from republican presidents.” He also criticizes Barack Obama for signing what he calls “that ten year $40,000,000,000 arms aid agreement,” arguing that Obama “never should have signed” it “because they treated Obama so shabbily in the first place.”

The discussion focuses on Iran strikes and what the “real objective” might be versus what the public is being told. One speaker points to “the first sinking of an enemy ship by a torpedo since World War two” and frames it as part of a broader distraction. They suggest the timing may be intended to draw attention away from other issues, mentioning “the Epstein stuff” and claiming “a 100%” connection to a “huge distraction.” The speaker also connects the Iran-related developments to other sudden, sensational news, stating “all of a sudden aliens are real, oh, by the way, we're starting a war with Iran at the same time,” which they say “seems a little bit too on the nose.” The speaker says Iran is “a problem” and that they “think Iran's a threat to The United States,” but they find the method hard to believe as the “only way to go about it,” concluding it is “so hard for me to think anything other than distraction.” They further note a recurring theme of accusations that Israel “playing a huge role” in the situation is driving U.S. actions, and ask whether the other speaker has an opinion on that. When asked about being “a puppet for Israel,” the speaker responds that if the U.S. is “literally just being a puppet for Israel,” that is “unsettled.”

Speaker 1 acknowledges that while intelligence is shared between the U.S. and Israel, it is likely not all intelligence. They also assume that allies, including Israel, spy on the U.S., and vice versa. Speaker 1 states that conservatives recognize people act in their own self-interest. Speaker 0 asks if it is in America's interest for Israel to spy on the U.S., including on the president. Speaker 1 responds that the close alliance with Israel provides huge benefits to the U.S. Speaker 0 asks why Speaker 1 won't say that Israel is not allowed to spy on the U.S. and that they don't want to be spied on.

We should not be spending money to support Israel. Our aid should not be going towards building a fort for them. We need to focus on our own interests and not waste resources on humanitarian aid.

Speaker 0 expresses the belief that as long as Israel exists and is supported by America, there will always be Muslims who pose a threat and seek to harm us. Speaker 1 disagrees, stating that they do not support Israel and do not believe it is worth American lives or dollars. Speaker 0 questions this stance, arguing that Israel is not comparable to other countries like Saudi Arabia. Speaker 1 clarifies that their main concern is the survival of the United States and expresses concern about the influence of APAC and the lobby on American support for Israeli actions.