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Whitney Webb and Graeme MacQueen discuss two intertwined legacies from 02/2001: the 9/11 attacks and the anthrax campaign, arguing that public reckoning remains incomplete and that these events are linked in ways that challenge the official narratives. They begin with Building 7, the 47-story World Trade Center tower that was not struck by a plane yet collapsed in a symmetrical free fall. MacQueen emphasizes Building 7’s significance beyond its inconvenience to the official story: it housed the Office of Emergency Management for the mayor, as well as FBI and Secret Service spaces, making its collapse highly consequential if explained as a demolition. He notes foreknowledge of the collapse among Fire Department of New York personnel and cites his analysis of the World Trade Center Task Force report, which he argues shows unusual advance awareness. He references eyewitness accounts, such as Barry Jenkins, inside the building, who described abrupt evacuation and an explosion that affected stairs, and he cites the Halsey report from the University of Alaska, which contends the official narrative cannot account for the collapse without virtually simultaneous column removal, implying controlled demolition. CNN’s on-air missteps and BBC errors are also cited as indicators of the episode’s irregularities. Building 7 is presented as a linchpin, not merely a curiosity or meme, and its collapse is positioned as a focal point for questioning the broader narrative around 9/11. The conversation expands to the broader politics of 9/11, the transition from Cold War to a global war on terror, and the possibility that intelligence operations and insider actions were aimed at guiding that shift. They discuss Jerome Hauer’s role, the Office of Emergency Management, and the odd abandonment of secure offices prior to 7’s collapse, along with other high-security actors in the building. MacQueen cites the pattern of early, sometimes sensational media coverage and the later discrediting or neglect of dissent, including the assertion that the 9/11 Commission Report is flawed and incomplete. The dialogue moves to the anthrax attacks, noting overlaps in personnel between 9/11 and anthrax, including Florida connections, the first victim Robert Stevens, and Gloria Irish, a realtor linked to both Stevens and some of the hijackers. The “double perpetrator” hypothesis—Al Qaeda with Iraq as a sponsor—was proposed but collapsed when anthrax appeared domestically to originate inside the United States; the FBI later acknowledged this, leading to a narrative shift toward a lone perpetrator (Bruce Ivins) and a public-relations pivot away from 9/11 connections. They discuss Dark Winter, a pre-9/11 bioterror tabletop exercise that anticipated martial-law provisions, and the involvement of figures like Judith Miller, Dick Cheney, and others in shaping the narrative and policy, including the Patriot Act. The conversation emphasizes fear as a tool used by officials and media to consolidate power, the challenges of independent media censorship, and the need for careful, broad coalitions rather than personality-driven fights. They conclude by stressing the value of studying the consensus panels, archival work, and professional analyses, and recommending reading as a durable path to understanding, rather than quick online conclusions. Graham MacQueen promotes his book, The 2,001 Anthrax Deception, available on Amazon and Clarity Press.

Whitney Webb and Robbie Martin convene on October 15 to mark the twentieth anniversary of the anthrax letters, noting public announcements with October’s spread of events and the role of the letters in pressuring lawmakers during debates over the Patriot Act. They outline their focus for the discussion: Robbie will present new material on Florida’s overlap with a wider network that may link the September 11 events to the anthrax attacks, expanding on Graham McQueen’s thesis that the same network was involved; Whitney will emphasize Battelle Memorial Institute and the criticisms of the Ivins narrative, including suggestions that prosecutors and DOJ lawyers argued that Patel—Battelle’s counterpart—was a more likely source than Bruce Ivins. Robbie opens with Florida as a nexus for intelligence operations, organized crime, and private flying schools connected to 9/11, drawing on Daniel Hopsicker’s Florida-focused research and a Finnish investigative list of nine/eleven suspects’ addresses. He explains how he mapped addresses from the FIN list onto a resource map, then broadened the pool to five times that size to include related figures and locations. He cites Sarasota and Longboat Key, where George W. Bush’s activities the night before September 11 included a stop at Emmett T. Booker School and a mysterious van visit, and notes Muhammad Atta’s reported presence nearby, including socializing in bars with other hijackers. He argues the Florida scene raises questions about whether attackers were operating within a larger, clandestine web of intelligence, mob, and private sector players active in the state. Whitney interjects with background on the Israeli art student espionage narrative tied to the DEA’s investigations in Florida, noting that the DEA memorandum and subsequent leaks linked to “team leaders” in the Israeli art student network suggest a broader pattern of espionage against U.S. agencies. Robbie demonstrates that a known Battelle VP, Russell P. Austin, is unusually close to one of the Israeli art student figures on the map, hinting at a possible overlap between Battelle labs in Florida and the Israeli art student operation. They discuss how the DEA memo was kept alive by later leaks and how Don Foster’s Vanity Fair pieces, Barbara Hatch Rosenberg’s timeline, and the Hatfield-Bill Patrick circle factor into broader questions about who controlled or influenced the investigation. The group points to the fact that the Israeli operations allegedly targeted DEA labs and technicians, suggesting a shared motive or operational pattern. They pivot to the anthrax-specific core: the AMI Building in Boca Raton (home to Robert Stevens’ employer, The Sun) and Gloria Irish, a real estate agent who brokered apartments that housed hijackers, with FBI interest early on that faded or was sidelined. Robbie highlights how the FBI may have observed a chain of proximity between Gloria Irish’s properties and hijacker activity, raising questions about what the FBI studied and why certain lines of inquiry were dropped. They discuss the connection to Battelle’s work on anthrax, the presence of Battelle labs in Florida, and how this intersects with Battelle’s relationship with vaccine programs and with the United States’ broader bioterror preparedness apparatus in the early 2000s. A major thread concerns the St. Petersburg hoax letters, postmarked September 20 and October 5, which appeared soon after real letters were sent from New Jersey on September 18. The handwriting similarities between the hoax and real letters, and the claim that the Brokaw letter included Cyrillic characters, are presented as evidence that hoax letters were not mere diversions but part of a connected campaign, possibly used to trigger investigations and shape public perception. They reference Barbara Hatch Rosenberg’s timeline, Judith Miller’s experience with a hoax letter, and the suggestion that Stephen Hatfield’s circle (and Bill Patrick’s) formed the core of a network with a propensity for dramatizing bioterror scenarios. Whitney then surveys the broader ecosystem: Bill Patrick’s controversial patents on biodust, his gain-of-function work with Ken Alabek at Battelle and the Pentagon, the Gulf War vaccine program and its adverse effects, Emergent BioSolutions and BioPort, and the policy machinery surrounding DHS, the National War College, and the Answer Institute for Homeland Security. They stress that Kadlik, Patrick, Alabek, Hatfill, and their associates continued to influence public health and security policy long after the anthrax events, with Kadlik moving into high-level roles in preparedness and response and later intersecting with vaccine manufacturing and countermeasures. The conversation closes with a call for open-source collaboration to trace these threads, archive documents, and continue the investigation, acknowledging that Florida’s network and the anthrax case remain deeply intertwined with U.S. national security policy and bioterror preparedness to this day.

Whitney Webb opens Unlimited Hangout’s first episode, introducing an investigative thread with Raul Diego’s series about engineering contagion, a Merithrax-era framing, and the biotech imperial complex, and invites Robbie Martin to discuss his two-part miniseries on the Committee on the Present Danger China and its links to a broader neocon apparatus and the Dark Winter milieu. Robbie Martin explains that the Committee on the Present Danger China is a revived neocon group targeting China with trade, cyber, and geopolitical pressure, echoing older anti-China narratives and reusing a playbook that includes pressuring for accountability over COVID-19’s origins. He notes ties between this new apparatus and the old Dark Winter crowd, including individuals associated with Project for the New American Century. He highlights Steve Bannon’s role in relaunching the think tank and observes how some figures—like James Woolsey, Frank Gaffney, William Bennett—reappear alongside others more recently associated with anti-China discourse, such as Bannon, and how the anti-China push intersects with claims that COVID-19 is a Chinese bioweapon or lab-origin narrative. The discussion stresses that the narrative push relies on familiar tropes about state bioweapons programs and lab accidents, referencing prior actors and outlets that helped seed similar claims. Webb and Martin pivot to all roads leading to Dark Winter. They summarize the June 2001 Dark Winter biowarfare simulation at Andrews Air Force Base, with participants including Jerome Hauer (FEMA), James Woolsey (CIA), Judith Miller (New York Times), Sam Nunn, Margaret Hamburg, and other prominent security figures. They point out that the exercise was drafted by Johns Hopkins Center for Civilian Biodefense Strategies (led by Tara O’Toole and now Thomas Inglesby), the Center for Strategic and International Studies, and the Analytics Services Institute for Homeland Security, with RAND Larson connecting Kadlik and others. The live briefing involved actors in some public clips, while many real participants attended behind the scenes. Kadlik, a biodefense insider with ties to Larson, appears in the exercise’s echoing news clips, including a line about a “dark winter” related to a hypothetical Chinese corn/pork bioterror scenario. The conversation emphasizes the Dark Winter narrative’s alignment with a Gulf War–era frame: Iraq, Saddam Hussein, and Al Qaeda are repeatedly linked; grainy satellite “intel” photos of a suspected Iraqi bio facility surface; the exercise contemplates a bioweapons threat from Iraq via intermediaries and even contemplates a possible infection that could justify troop deployments to the Middle East. They note the use of a grainy, “defector”–style intelligence thread, similar to later real-world assertions that Iraq had Soviet-era bioweapons programs, even as no forensic evidence supported those links. The dialogue also highlights a 2005 Atlantic Storm sequel and the broader theme of biowarfare democratization. Webb and Martin discuss the end of Dark Winter, where a defector in the exercise claims Iraq’s involvement with the smallpox outbreak, a claim deemed highly credible despite lacking forensic proof. They note the exercise’s parallel to contemporary debates about China and the Wuhan lab, and the recurrent motif of satellite imagery and dubious “forensic” assertions fueling public fear. They also touch on how Dick Cheney was briefed on Dark Winter, and how Tara O’Toole and Inglesby briefed Cheney after the exercise, underscoring the intimate policy-to-scenario feedback loop. They transition to the anthrax attacks (Amerithrax). Bob Stevens’ death on October 5 marks the first fatal case, followed by five deaths and multiple infections from four letters to Leahy, Daschle, the New York Post, and Tom Brokaw. They discuss weaponized, finely milled anthrax in Leahy and Daschle’s offices versus inert powder in Judith Miller’s letter, the global reach of letters, and how the letters’ messaging tied to September 11 through “Death to America, Death to Israel, Allah is great.” They critique the FBI’s handling: destruction of the Ames strain’s database, early misdirections, and later debates over Bruce Ivins’ guilt, the NAS review, and Lambert’s whistleblower claims that evidence was stovepiped. They recount the crop-duster rumors, Atta’s potential attempts to access agricultural aircraft, and the broader media climate that amplified fear around bioterrorism. The conversation closes with reflections on how biodefense programs—BASIS, BioWatch, and post–9/11 stockpiling—transformed national security, often with questionable safety outcomes and expensive, sometimes ineffective, programs. They signal ongoing inquiries into Fort Detrick, Dugway, and the Pentagon’s handling of biosafety, while acknowledging that the Amerithrax case remains contested, with exculpatory evidence reportedly withheld and investigations intermittently politicized. The episode ends with acknowledgments of Patreon support and a tease toward future installments.