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Speaker 0 ties Operation Warp Speed to Pfizer. "They're doing a huge investment into bringing more drugs into America and also coming up with a vaccine that's to solve cancer." He states, "vaccination is the cause of cancer. I never saw a case of cancer in an unvaccinated person." He adds that people "died suddenly after taking the vaccines and boosters," and that "during 1986, government decided to put an act in to protect Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson and Johnson, and all these companies from lawsuits." He alleges the military as test subjects: "Soldiers disabled and killed by vaccinations, April. No wounds, no damages, no shots, just vaccines." He recalls 1885: "Vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate. There's money in it. Money in the side effects." He asks, "See those people holding down that person and vaccinating them?" Mentions Murder by Injection and The Poison Needle. Speaker 1: "No, I'm a big believer in vaccines. Polio vaccine. Big, big believer in vaccines."

Speaker 0 argues that anyone can file a complaint with a law enforcement authority for murder conspiracy and demand arrests and prosecutions. He points to a 2013 press release claiming that DARPA awarded Moderna Therapeutics up to $25,000,000 to develop messenger RNA therapeutics, noting that DARPA is the Pentagon and claiming the Pentagon bought, paid for, and envisioned these mRNA shots. He contends Fort Detrick was involved in developing COVID-19 at the UNC BSL-3 and asserts the Pentagon is on both sides of the argument, developing the weapon and the alleged vaccines. Speaker 1 asks whether there is any liability shield for deploying a biowarfare weapon and whether the narrative about congressional liability for Pfizer is a SIOP. Speaker 0 agrees that civil liability is separate from criminal liability, stating in his book Resisting Medical Tyranny that executives at companies developing these mRNA shots are guilty of murder and conspiracy to commit murder. He cites a Portugal report claiming that upwards of 300,000 Americans had been murdered by the mRNA Franken shots and invokes the JAB resolution, describing it as a Nuremberg crime against humanity and a violation of the Nuremberg Code. He defines a Nuremberg crime against humanity as murder, extermination, and other inhumane acts committed against civilians. Speaker 1 asks about liability for government officials who approved the vaccines. Speaker 0 says FDA officials who approved the shots could be indicted for murder and conspiracy to commit murder, noting the FDA’s involvement in developing COVID-19 as an offensive biological warfare weapon at UNC BSL-3, including a cited contract listing National Center for Toxicological Research and FDA as contributors. He claims the FDA, which approves the vaccines, was involved in this development. Speaker 1 questions the CDC and media accountability, noting the CDC’s recommendation of the vaccines and media promotion of boosters. Speaker 0 says the CDC, including Director Milensky (appointed by Biden, from Harvard Medical School), is complicit, and claims the CDC has a history dating back to the Reagan administration of handling offensive biological warfare projects, including shipping weaponized agents to Saddam Hussein with implications for U.S. troops after Gulf War I. Speaker 1 asks whether there are lawmakers with intel on gain-of-function biowarfare. Speaker 0 mentions Senator Rand Paul as having a strong understanding, but asserts that some lawmakers were threatened and obstructed after consulting him, recounting an experience with Walter Jones of the House Armed Services Committee who briefly engaged but then did not follow up, implying threats prevented action. Speaker 1 asks how citizens should respond, and Speaker 0 advocates reporting to sheriffs, district attorneys, and state attorneys, noting progress with a Collier County health freedom declaration. They discuss enforcement mechanisms, seizure, and incineration of stockpiles, and trial and sentencing for those responsible. Speaker 0 condemns China’s Wuhan Institute of Virology as a bioweapons lab, alleging it was a Chinese counterpart to Fort Detrick, with the Chinese president seeking his own BSL-4 program and an offensive biowarfare arsenal. Speaker 1 notes U.S. funding and international bioweapons labs, including Ukraine and Taiwan, and ends by referencing Lindsey Graham and a speaker labeled as a professor Boyle.

People are finally starting to see the evidence against vaccines, with new studies linking boosters to cancer. Most MPs are still supporting vaccines, but only to save face until after the upcoming election. The speaker believes the vaccine rollout is a crime against humanity, with potentially millions of deaths worldwide.

Speaker 0 described a guest whose 18-year-old daughter was injected with Pfizer and developed cancer. He stated that he has sat across numerous people who lost their children to these injections, with some deaths immediate and others gruesome, and that these people must testify to lawmakers and others recounting their stories repeatedly. He framed this as a massive crime that needs to stop. He asserted that the FDA was fully aware that these injections would cause cancer, citing published guidance documents. He claimed that the FDA regulates the industry and, in 2015 and 2013 (and even more recently), wrote extensive guidance documents explaining to manufacturers developing mRNA products that they must study risks, including cancer, death, fertility issues, blindness, strokes, and cardiovascular issues. He said these risks were documented as regulatory knowledge and that manufacturers were told they had to study these risks and exclude them. He also claimed that studying these risks in healthy volunteers was not allowed because it was considered unethical. He contrasted this with 2020, stating that “all of a sudden, all of this is solved,” calling it a joke, and that this period raised his suspicions, prompting him to investigate independently. He concluded by describing the situation as a premeditated crime in which regulators knew, and that the military conducted a “fake exercise” to capture all these pharmaceutical companies and compel them to create these weapons.

The speaker claims that “the centerpiece of the Pfizer papers” is an intentional attack on human sexuality, especially women and babies. They assert that Pfizer “killed the babies” and “knew it,” “poisoned the breast milk” and “knew it,” “damaged the placentas” and “knew it,” and “lowered the sperm count” and “knew it.” They say the papers include a chart of the babies being injured and a chart of women’s menstrual cycles being disrupted. They further claim the papers concluded that “babies were dying in utero due to maternal exposure to the vaccine.” The speaker states that this document “went to Dr. Walensky,” and that Walensky then gave a press conference urging people to get a COVID vaccine before, during, or after pregnancy. The speaker describes the situation as “satanic on a massive level.” They also reference “Borla” and emphasize that, in their reading of the Pfizer papers, it is impossible to conclude otherwise regarding intent. The speaker points to “this 13 to 20% drop in live births,” and concludes that they “tried to kill us,” “tried to wipe us out,” and “tried to sterilize us.” They claim that many people died, that there will be “horrible struggles with fertility,” and that they survived while “the truth came out.”

Speaker 0 frames the issue as 'the corruption of science' and the 'capture of the agencies' by pharmaceutical industries, stating the goal is to restore integrity and credibility to science. Speaker 1 cites a CDC internal study: 'black boys who got the vaccine on time had a two hundred and sixty percent greater chance of getting an autism diagnosis than children who waited.' He adds that 'The chief chief scientist on that, Doctor. William Thompson, the senior said vaccine safety science at CDC, was ordered to destroy that data. And then they published it without that fact.' Finally, he asserts, 'So, you know that story. And you know of hundreds of stories like that. It happens all the time. We are being lied to by these agencies, and we're gonna change that right now.'

Speaker 0: It was January 2022 when a colleague of mine in the unit came to me saying, something's up. We've had a doubling or tripling of baby deaths in the last year. And that's what got my curiosity piqued. Speaker 1: Their own government told us a medical treatment was safe, and it killed babies. Speaker 2: I have lost all faith that Health Canada is looking out genuine for the best interests of Canadians. Speaker 3: Doctors made extra money to push vaccines and they were given a billing code to do it. I have pulled all the billing codes. Speaker 2: They've purchased the vaccine that hasn't been approved. They've distributed it to the province so the second it's approved, we can start jabbing ourselves with it. We can start jabbing pregnant mothers with it. Speaker 4: Why did we have to get these vaccinations? Like, why was this something that we had to do? You go to the hospital, you expect to have a baby, and you expect to go home, And then you don't. Speaker 0: I was suspect that there was criminal negligence on part of the government and the public health officials. Possible. They pushed on with this narrative to everybody, including pregnant and breastfeeding women, that the mRNA shots were safe and effective. Speaker 2: They had wiretapped her phone. They had harassed her. They had charged her. They didn't allow any expert witnesses to testify. Speaker 1: Our Canadian babies died, and the police are trying to cover it up to the point of stopping detective Helen Greaves from testifying about it. Speaker 2: The dominant individuals keep the subordinates in their place by constant aggression. Speaker 4: If you don't want to get vaccinated, that's your choice. But don't think you can get on a plane or a train besides vaccinated people and put them at risk. Speaker 2: It started off with CBC running a story to implicate her and to paint her with a brush that looks uncomplimentary to the public. Speaker 5: Canada has to shift their understanding of what the CBC is. It is a state broadcaster pushing the agenda of the Liberal government of Canada. Speaker 2: This is the most significant matter affecting our children today from a health perspective, and they're still not investigating. Everything emanates outward from this case involving law enforcement, the judicial system, the pharmaceutical industry, our health agencies, how they work together, how they censored information. It all ties together to this one case, and that's what makes it so dangerous.

The speakers claim that well-funded entities suppressed the truth about autism. They state that parents of autistic children who have tried to investigate the causes of autism have encountered intense resistance. They allege that studies used to support the claim that vaccines don't cause autism are easily disproven, but the media's ownership allows the lie to spread faster than the truth. One speaker believes that many find it too difficult to accept that vaccines could cause autism. They mention someone who suspects a vaccine caused their child's autism but still shamed others for not taking the COVID vaccine, illustrating the power of propaganda. People are afraid of social ostracization and are hesitant to speak their minds, often only whispering their true feelings to close friends. The speakers reference montages showing the horrible things people said about unvaccinated individuals.

I recently heard stories of people losing their children to Pfizer injections, some experiencing immediate or gruesome deaths. The FDA knew about potential risks like cancer from as far back as 2013, but suddenly in 2020, these concerns were ignored. This seems like a premeditated crime, with regulators aware of the dangers. Military involvement in pushing these products is suspicious.

Speaker 0 describes a study on the hepatitis B vaccine, stating it is loaded with mercury during the first thirty days of life and comparing infants who received it in that period to those who did not or who received it later. He claims that the relative risk of smoking a pack a day for twenty years leading to lung cancer is ten, with a figure of 11.35, and attributes this to Thimerosal. Speaker 1 asks if the claim is about Thimerosal, and Speaker 0 confirms, then recounts a story that motivated his involvement: a “secret meeting” held to avoid on-campus exposure to freedom of information requests. The meeting occurred at Simpson Wood, a remote Methodist retreat center on the Chattahoochee River in Norcross, Georgia. Over two days, 52 attendees included major vaccine companies, regulatory agencies (WHO, CDC, FDA, NIH, HHS), and leaders in academic vaccinology. Megan recorded the first day, and Speaker 0 says he obtained the transcripts in 2005, calling them horrific. He invites listeners to read them on the Children’s Health Events site to judge for themselves, arguing the transcripts reveal “panjarums of the American healthcare system” and that regulators claimed the science was bulletproof while suggesting vaccines cause autism. Speaker 1 notes that Speaker 0 has previously claimed the conference revealed that vaccines cause autism and that data should be buried, referencing a January 2011 Rolling Stone article and a Salon piece that later withdrew the article. He mentions an eighteen-month US Senate committee investigation that found allegations of CDC misconduct unsubstantiated and concluded there was no cover-up. Speaker 0 clarifies it was a two-year committee hearing led by Senator Burton at the Governmental Oversight Committee, and asserts that vaccines do cause autism, while encouraging listeners to research the science themselves rather than trust him or the organizations cited. Speaker 0 then attacks the credibility and funding of CDC, NIH, and the American Academy of Pediatrics, claiming they are “bought and paid for,” with statistics he cites: FDA is funded 45% by the pharmaceutical industry; the AAP allegedly gets 80% of its money from industry; and the CDC spends 4,900,000,000 of its 12,000,000,000 annual budget. Speaker 1 pushes back by noting that parents within these organizations vaccinate their own children against vaccines that include thimerosal, asking rhetorically whether they are willingly harming their children, and suggesting a broader government conspiracy. Speaker 0 then directs Speaker 1 to the movie Dopesick for further context, contrasting it with opioid prescriptions, and asserts that doctors treated patients and their own children with opioids because they believed FDA guidance. Overall, the dialogue centers on thimerosal in early vaccines, alleged hidden meetings and data suppression, controversial media coverage of vaccines-autism links, and critical claims about regulatory agency funding and conduct, culminating in comparisons to pharmaceutical and medical industry dynamics.

World governments have harmed millions without apology. The speaker believes vaccines cause autism, but mainstream media won't discuss it. They gathered data from 10,000 parents showing a link between vaccines and autism, ADHD, and other health issues. More shots lead to poorer health in children.

The speaker claims colored vaccines are dangerous, with no clinical benefit and over 10,000,000 deaths worldwide. They suggest avoiding vaccination altogether, citing studies showing unvaccinated kids are healthier. They criticize censorship by the government and medical boards, leading to job loss and license revocation for speaking out against the narrative. The medical journals are also deemed corrupt. Speaker 1 mentions not every batch causes harm, as they themselves took a few shots without issue.

Speaker 0: "the major problem in our government right now is that it's one with corporations." "corporate corruption collusion with the government" drives a lot of content. "it's easier for big pharma to do their thing if people aren't really talking about it." "they... try to make it a cultural issue." "vaccines to me is not really a cultural issue. It's a scientific medical situation." "It's insane." They discuss: "Does a newborn really need hepatitis b? What are these adjuvants in these vaccines like aluminum? Do we need these things? Are there safer alternatives?" "If you just say that, then all of a sudden, you're an anti vaxxer. That's a pejorative that's placed on you, and now you're a crazy kook, and you're not trustworthy." "If there's people out there to demonize you, that means you are pushing against something that there's a barrier that they don't want you to cross." "It's almost like China's social."

The speaker claims that on 10/26/2020, Anita Nann of the Liberal Party signed a Pfizer Canada agreement that states in section 5.5 that the long term effects and efficacy of the vaccine are not currently known and that there may be adverse effects of the vaccine that are not currently known. The speaker alleges that the government knew in October 2020 that the vaccines were not safe or effective, but forced them on the population anyway. The speaker also references a June 2024 NCI cop report that allegedly identified 11 traitors in the House of Commons. The speaker asks why this information was not disclosed and questions how informed decisions can be made without knowing if one is voting for someone who committed treason. Speaker 1 encourages listeners to visit ledgerwood.ca to learn more and vote for an MP who will fight for them and tell them the truth.

The speaker claims the Biden administration covered up science related to the COVID shot. Information related to vaccine complications was allegedly censored as COVID vaccine hesitant content. The speaker alleges the heart inflammation in young, healthy men and boys was not disclosed as soon as it should have been, resulting in thousands of kids developing myocarditis unnecessarily. The speaker suggests the administration knew the shot didn't stop transmission but kept it secret. The head of the FDA is cited as saying the Biden administration suppressed information about myocarditis damage to children. The speaker believes this sounds criminal, especially considering mandates for school, work, and travel.

The speakers discuss a broad denial about vaccine injuries and the idea that, despite evidence, the medical establishment and political figures push the narrative that vaccines are safe and effective. They claim that many people who are vaccinated want to move on and avoid acknowledging serious side effects, including turbo cancers, undetected myocarditis, and neurological issues, and that autoimmune disease is being attributed to other causes. They argue that the medical establishment, federal health agencies, and some members of Congress who produce supportive content, such as segments like Steve Colbert’s, advocate for taking the shot. They question how many people were killed or died from the shot, asserting that Bayer’s data shows “close[ly]” to thirty-nine thousand worldwide, and that if only ten percent are reported, the true number would be in the hundreds of thousands. They claim there are millions of adverse events, but that this is denied and covered up. The speakers contend that the shot was not a real vaccine. They describe it as gene therapy rather than a traditional vaccine. They explain a sequence in which a vaccine is typically an attenuated or killed virus that requires adjuvants like aluminum or mercury to stimulate the immune system, because the attenuated or killed virus may not work well on its own. In contrast, they say this shot is mRNA, which is modified so it does not degrade. They describe how it is put into a lipid nanoparticle designed to permeate barriers like the blood-brain barrier, and they assert it would never stay in the arm, distributing all over the body. They claim the lipid nanoparticle allows the mRNA to enter cells, hijack cellular structures, and cause the cells to express spike protein, which the body then attacks as foreign. When asked who is responsible, they reference a “doctor Frankenstein” figure and name Francis Collins, head of the NIH, and Anthony Fauci as possible figures in question. The response indicates that while they consider all of them criminally liable, they would say it is primarily Fauci, with acknowledgment that people like Collins are implicated as well.

Senator Johnson is asked about a “COVID cover-up” and why legacy media such as CNN is not covering it. The interviewee claims that Peter Marks knew on March 1, 2021 that “their algorithms were hiding safety signals,” and that 26 days later it was discovered they had 25 serious adverse events, including sudden cardiac death, pulmonary infarction, bells and pauses, and different types of strokes. The interviewee says the information was “buried” and “hid,” calling it a major scandal that major media is ignoring for almost six weeks. When asked whether people could sue the U.S. government over the COVID cover-up, the interviewee says legal ramifications are hard to say, noting the government’s ability to protect itself and people carrying out its mission. They frame their role as exposing the issue and mention “radical transparency” from Secretary Kennedy as enabling access to more documents and more people to interview. The interviewee calls it the biggest scandal of their lifetime, saying people were not warned and were mandated to take the shot or were coerced or convinced without the kind of information needed for informed consent. They claim that millions suffered adverse events and that at least tens of thousands died after the March 1 date. In response, a commentator asserts that “conspiracy theorists were right again,” reiterating that 25 serious adverse events with the COVID vaccine were hidden from the public. They describe “masking” as obscuring and then list categories of side effects, focusing on neurological and cardiac effects (including sudden death and cardiac failure) and pulmonary effects associated with stroke, along with other “obscure” items. They conclude that people should have been warned about these side effects before getting the vaccine, rather than being told it was 100% safe and effective.

In January 2022, a colleague alerted Speaker 0 that there had been a doubling or tripling of baby deaths in the last year, which sparked curiosity. Speaker 1 states that “Their own government told us a medical treatment was safe, and it killed babies.” Speaker 2 says she has “lost all faith that Health Canada is looking out genuinely for the best interests of Canadians.” Speaker 3 alleges that doctors “made extra money to push vaccines” and were given a billing code to do it, and that she has “pulled all the billing codes.” Speaker 4 asserts that “They've purchased the vaccine that hasn't been approved,” distributed it to the provinces so that once it’s approved, they can “start jabbing ourselves with it” and “start jabbing pregnant mothers with it.” Speaker 3 questions the necessity of vaccinations: “Why did we have to get these vaccinations? Like, why was this something that we had to do? You go to the hospital, you expect to have a baby, and you expect to go home, and then you don't.” Speaker 0 speculates on criminal negligence, saying, “I would suspect that there was criminal negligence on part of the government and the public health officials.” Speaker 3 notes that it is “highly recommended that pregnant women get their vaccine as soon as possible.” Speaker 0 contends that a narrative was pushed to everybody, including pregnant and breastfeeding women, that the mRNA shots were safe and effective. Speaker 2 claims wiretapping, harassment, charging, and barring expert witnesses: “They had wiretapped her phone. They had harassed her. They had charged her. They didn't allow any expert witnesses to testify.” Speaker 1 accuses police of trying to cover up Canadian babies’ deaths “to the point of stopping detective Helen Greaves from testifying about it.” Speaker 4 observes that “The dominant individuals keep the subordinates in their place by constant aggression.” Speaker 5 discusses vaccination choice versus public risk, remarking, “If you don't wanna get vaccinated, that's your choice. But don't think you can get on a plane or a train besides vaccinated people and put them at risk,” and claims CBC initially “started off with CBC running a story to implicate her and to paint her with a brush that looks uncomplimentary to the public.” Speaker 6 claims Canada must shift its understanding of what the is, describing it as “a state broadcaster pushing the agenda of the Liberal government of Canada.” Speaker 4 calls this “the most significant matter affecting our children today from a health perspective,” noting that authorities are “not investigating.” Speaker 2 concludes that everything emanates outward from this case involving law enforcement, the judicial system, the pharmaceutical industry, and health agencies, “how they work together, how they censored information. It all ties together to this one case, and that's what makes it so dangerous.”

There is a discussion about how public trust in vaccination has changed since the pandemic. The speaker notes that years ago there were “five people in the world who were prepared to talk about the thorny issue of vaccination.” Post COVID, however, “half the adult population of the world are now saying, hold on, we don't trust you. You lied to us. It's not what you told us, safe and effective.” This skepticism extends to vaccines given to children, with the question, “Does this apply to all the other vaccines you're putting into my kids?” The speaker then asserts that “safety studies haven't been done,” suggesting that important research behind vaccines is incomplete or lacking. This leads to the claim that “they've created this mess for themselves.” Despite the frustration, the speaker emphasizes the moral weight of deception, stating, “it's really tough to lie. I mean, lying gets you into real trouble.”

The speaker claims a committee experienced typical conflict, but a specific conflict was particularly obvious. The Office of Inspector General and Congress investigated and urged change, but nothing happened. The speaker asserts this group committed medical malpractice by approving vaccines, increasing the number from 11 in 1986 to 69 and then 92. They state that, except for the COVID vaccine, none had pre-licensing safety trials with a true placebo. According to the speaker, these vaccines were introduced without safety studies, meaning the risk profiles are unknown. The speaker attributes this to corruption and agency capture.

The speakers claim the push for a COVID vaccine was motivated by money, and they believe there's a connection between the vaccine and subsequent deaths and blood clots. They express frustration that people aren't acknowledging this connection. One speaker shares a story about a veteran who was allegedly told that the hospital treating him was not allowed to connect his adverse side effects to the vaccine, even when listed as side effects. They say corporations don't want to talk about it because they mandated the vaccine. They believe people who got vaccinated don't want to admit they made a bad decision, leading them to deny any link between the vaccine and increased mortality rates, strokes, cancer, and heart attacks. One speaker recalls being gaslit by a former prime minister who denied coercing anyone into getting vaccinated, despite restrictions placed on the unvaccinated. Another speaker says they were misrepresented on CNN during their own recovery from COVID.

Speaker 1 says they believed more people were becoming aware that vaccines cause autism and sudden infant death syndrome in certain cases, that many vaccines are never proven safe or effective, and that approvals occur under “fraudulent conditions,” citing laws and authorizations such as the PREP Act and emergency use authorization for COVID vaccines. They argue the vaccine industry is “a complete and total fraud” and ask whether that realization is happening in local government or schools. Speaker 0 replies that in states including Connecticut, New York, California, Illinois, New Jersey, and Massachusetts, the situation still resembles 2019 because it is framed as a political issue. They claim left-leaning officials will “do anything” to thwart what they call an agenda, despite what they describe as “solid, peer-reviewed scientific data,” “mountains of evidence,” and congressional and Senate hearings. They reference testimony by Aaron Siri, Robert F. Kennedy as HHS, Robert Malone, and others, and say Senator Ron Johnson held hearings. Speaker 0 asserts that when they tried to testify, their testimony was muted and cut off during a public health committee process. Speaker 0 says officials on those committees continue to claim there is no evidence vaccines cause autism, that vaccines are safe and effective, and that vaccines are the best way to protect public health and achieve herd immunity. They also mention that these officials still wear masks in legislative chambers. Speaker 1 responds that the persistence of such positions raises the question of how society can function with “ignorant, illiterate people” in charge of legislative processes. Speaker 0 says they no longer live in Connecticut and presents two options: voting them out is not expected because of a supermajority and because, in their view, many voters are affected by election fraud, not alive, not legal citizens, or are “blinded followers.” They state the conflict is framed as “my team, us versus them.” They say they do not think the situation can be won politically in Connecticut, so options are moving or fighting back in courts. Speaker 0 says they moved but still wants to fight in court for states including California, Connecticut, and New York, citing friends and family who cannot leave due to circumstances such as custody arrangements and the risk of being charged with kidnapping. They state they continue lawsuits for those who cannot relocate.

Speaker 1 states that no vaccines, including the COVID vaccine, have been properly tested. They claim that no childhood vaccine has undergone a placebo-controlled clinical trial of sufficient duration and power to assess its safety before being injected into millions of children in America. Speaker 1 asserts this is not an opinion, but can be verified by anyone reviewing package inserts and clinical trial documents on the FDA website.

100 Canadian children have died after receiving Pfizer or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines, but this information is being covered up. Many kids were mandated vaccines to play sports. No one is taking responsibility for these deaths, with Health Canada, public health officials, and medical organizations all denying any deaths from the vaccines. The speaker has reported on these deaths on social media, leading to attempts to shut down their accounts.

The speaker believes COVID vaccine programs should be stopped. They are astounded by the number of papers critical of the vaccine or showing negative effects. The speaker claims a group of researchers funded by Pfizer and the NIH bullies editors to retract papers with negative findings about the vaccine. They assert the number of retractions is appalling. According to the speaker, in one instance where an editor resisted, Nature Springer bought the journal and retracted the paper. The speaker states that this is what they have been dealing with.