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Over the past few days, the conversation covered rising U.S. gas prices, with average prices surpassing $4 per gallon on Tuesday, the highest in nearly four years. The discussion then shifted to geopolitical tensions around Iran, Israel, and the United States. It was noted that Donald Trump is reportedly seeking an off ramp from the war against Iran, but every time there are negotiations toward ceasefires or frameworks for talks, Israel allegedly bombs to scuttle those plans. Joe Kent was cited as saying that there is significant frustration inside the Trump administration because Israeli actions derail negotiations. Further comments stated that whenever Trump attempts to move toward negotiation, Israelis “come in and they kill negotiators,” “kill members of the government,” and “bomb the infrastructure” to show that the U.S. is not negotiating in good faith, with the implication that U.S. verbal assurances are hollow while Israel acts unrestrained. It was suggested that only when the U.S. actually restrains Israel’s support will their behavior change, despite reports of high-level admonitions from the Vice President or others. Trump published a note on Truth Social addressed to Europe and the UK, criticizing their inability to obtain jet fuel due to the Strait of Hormuz and urging the United Kingdom to buy oil from the United States, build up courage, and take control of Hormuz, implying the U.S. would no longer assist them. The program then brought in economist Professor Richard Werner to analyze global economic directions amid oil and gas price concerns, food stocks, fertilizer, helium, and related supply chains. Werner, based in Europe, emphasized Europe’s dependence on energy, fertilizer, and other raw materials from abroad, noting that Europe has thrived on an international trade model that moved up value-added production. He described the current situation as a policy-induced crisis or potential catastrophe, with energy supply already restricted by past policy choices (e.g., cutting ties with Russia for energy, decommissioning nuclear and coal plants). He warned of a possible major shock to the economy, comparing the risk to the 2020 experience of policy-induced throttling. The discussion touched on financial vulnerability, including concerns about how embargos or disruptions could affect food supply chains and economic stability. Werner described the situation as intentional policy shifts and indicated a broader realignment of the global order, with institutions like BRICS, the Belt and Road Initiative, the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, and the New Development Bank fostering greater influence for China and other non-U.S. actors. He asserted that there is a push for a new international order that gives more power to alternative players, criticizing U.S. dominance in the IMF and World Bank. Werner argued that the “petrodollar system” established after the 1970s allowed continued U.S. economic supremacy, and suggested the world is witnessing a shift away from the dollar’s dominance toward alternative systems, potentially including digital currencies. He claimed Western countries are moving toward digital control measures, including strict currency surveillance and restrictions, while BRICS countries show more interest in gold as a store of value. He also described increasing censorship and sanctions in the EU regarding dissenting opinions, tying this to the rollout of digital currencies and the potential for controllable spending if governments “switch off” money. The exchange concluded with gratitude for Werner’s analysis and a hope for cooler heads to prevail to minimize impact, while acknowledging the likelihood of a new world order.

The speaker emphasizes the importance of understanding that the mainstream media is lying about global events to push their control agenda. They mention that several countries, including BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa), have already detached themselves from the US dollar and adopted asset-backed currencies. The speaker highlights that over half of the world's population has already transitioned to asset-backed currencies. They also mention that many other countries have joined or expressed interest in joining BRICS, including Germany. The speaker urges listeners to wake up to the truth.

You know my country was the first where they made cash illegal. 2016, digitalization was forced from the country. 08:00 in the evening announced midnight cash was illegal, the big notes. And 70% of the economy crashed. This digitalization is now going all over the world and there's a war on cash. They call it war on cash. Because cash is merely a medium of exchange. It has no value in itself. It's just a promise. You read the dollar note it says I promise to pay the bearer. But an element of that great reset is you will own nothing. And you might have also followed that while all this has been happening the founder of the World Economic Forum did a book called The Great Reset on how to deal with the COVID crisis.

Ashwin Rutansi hosts Going Underground from Dubai, discussing the World Government Summit in the UAE, which brought together 6,000 attendees, 35 heads of state, ministers, and leaders from civil society, academia, and business. The conversation centers on BRICS, its role on the world stage, and tensions in the region amid US naval activity in the Gulf. Victoria Panova, head of BRICS Expert Council (Russia), vice director of HSE University, and Sherpa of the G20 advisory group for Russia, shares her impressions and analysis. Panova’s first impression of the summit is the remarkable diversity and high level of organization, with attendees from various paths of life and countries, creating a vibrant environment for dialogue. She notes the forum’s focus on AI and technological challenges, even as regional security concerns linger behind the scenes due to US carrier presence and broader tensions in the region. She observes dual-use nature of AI and weapons and questions why security issues are not more openly addressed, pointing to the UN Security Council’s blockages and the existence of a “peace council” that is not fully formed. Discussing BRICS members and expansion, Panova explains that UAE and Iran are among the newer members and emphasizes BRICS’ need to demonstrate capacity during “count times.” She outlines the original six invited countries and the current mix of members, partners, and invited states, noting Argentina’s initial interest and its later hesitation. The question of why Saudi Arabia is not a full member while UAE and Iran are is explained in terms of historical invitations, internal Brazilian debates, and consensus-based BRICS governance, which requires broad agreement rather than unilateral action. Panova highlights the New Development Bank (NDB) as BRICS’ key financial instrument, distinguished by its lack of Western member states and absence of political conditionalities, although she acknowledges its current smaller scale and ongoing need for growth. Dilma Rousseff is noted as head of the NDB, with Putin’s influence cited in ensuring continuity of leadership. The discussion touches on Venezuela’s BRICS status, Maduro’s kidnapping incident, and the Brazilian veto influenced by internal Brazilian opinions and Mato Grosso considerations, with the BRICS civil council issuing a declaration in support of Maduro, though BRICS itself remains constrained by consensus requirements. On global order and currency systems, Panova argues that BRICS aims to reduce dependence on the dollar, noting that non-dollar trade is already significant (e.g., Brazil-China trade where 48% is non-dollar, Russia-India trade using rubles and renminbi). She emphasizes that while the dirham in Dubai is pegged to the dollar, BRICS members seek to diversify payment systems and currencies, including potential BRICS digital currency discussions at the sherpa level, with the first sherpa meeting in February to set detailed priorities. The dialogue also considers Donald Trump’s impact on BRICS. Panova suggests Trump’s stance against BRICS aligns with de-dollarization efforts and the pursuit of independent payment systems, although she acknowledges that Trump has used sanctions as bargaining leverage and that BRICS seeks to strengthen collective action rather than rely on any single country. The interview closes with expectations for India-hosted sherpas and the lead-up to the BRICS leaders’ summit, underscoring BRICS’ evolving role as a potential counterweight to Western-dominated institutions. Overall, the discussion emphasizes BRICS’ pursuit of financial autonomy, diversified currencies, and enhanced global influence through structured diplomacy, expansion, and alternative development financing, set against ongoing regional security complexities and Western geopolitical pressures.

There is a possibility that multiple world reserve currencies can exist simultaneously. Many countries are becoming disillusioned with the US dollar as the reserve currency and are open to trying something else. One potential scenario is if countries realize that the US dollar will not remain the reserve currency forever. Similar to banks, smaller banks would not want to use a system built by their biggest competitors. Likewise, nations would prefer their currency to be the world reserve currency, but realistically, only a few countries could achieve this. Therefore, some countries might prefer a currency that nobody can control rather than one controlled by their rivals. The challenge lies in getting everyone to agree on an alternative.

I'll explain the difference between payment and settlement. Payment is when you use your Visa card at a restaurant, but settlement is when the money actually moves between accounts. Traditional systems like Swift separate payment and settlement due to historical reasons. These systems are outdated, dating back to the 1970s, and are in need of modernization. Even if blockchain and cryptocurrencies fail, the payment industry will still evolve.

You know, you have this little group called BRICS. It's fading out fast. But BRICS is, they wanted to try and take over the dollar, the dominance of the dollar, and, the standard of the dollar. And I said, anybody that's in the BRICS consortium of nations, we're gonna tariff you 10%. And they had a meeting the following day and almost nobody showed up. They were they said, leave me alone. We didn't wanna they didn't wanna be tariffed to their that's amazing. No. We're not gonna let the dollar slide. If we have a smart president, you're never gonna let the dollar slide. If you have a dummy, that could happen.

Former President Trump's economic advisers are considering ways to prevent nations from moving away from using the dollar. This move aims to counter emerging markets' efforts to reduce exposure to the US currency. The US previously excluded Russia from SWIFT, leading to the creation of alternative money clearing networks by Russia and China. Many nations are exploring innovative financial structures like CBDCs, while the US remains hesitant. The possibility of multiple world reserve currencies is realistic, with countries preferring a currency not controlled by geopolitical rivals. Success for digital assets could come from nations agreeing on a currency that no one controls.

Speaker 0 says that each country will crash its fiat currency and there will be no paper money globally in eighteen months; it will all be digital. Once each country has its own digital currency, that’s the small step. They can’t move to a global digital currency all at once, because that would tip people off to “the whole scam.” So they are doing it one country at a time to make it look like it’s not all connected. After each country cuts off paper money and implements its digital currency, they will finish crashing the whole world’s economy, and then they will come out and say, we need a one world digital currency, but they’ve already got it. The UN is already talking about this; they’ve been working on it for two years and it’s already in place. They’ll say we need a one world digital currency to stop all these crashes and things from happening ever again. It’s for your protection. That’s how they get the one world currency in.

Larry Johnson and Glenn discuss the shifting dynamics of the US dollar, the international financial system, and the rise of competing powers. - Johnson recalls the 1965 term exorbitant privilege describing the US dollar’s reserve-currency advantages. In 1971, the US closed the gold window, ending fixed gold value for the dollar; the dollar later became backed by “our promise,” enabling the petrodollar system as oil purchases were conducted in dollars. The dollar’s dominance rested on predictability, a stable legal system, and non-abusive use of the dollar as an economic tool rather than a political weapon. - Trump-era sanctions expanded broadly, impacting friends and adversaries alike, and BRICS nations began moving away from the dollar. Russia’s disconnection from SWIFT after its 2022 actions is noted as a turning point that encouraged the BRICS’ development of alternative financial infrastructure, including China’s cross-border interbank payment system (CIPS). This shift accelerates the decline of the dollar’s dominance. - Nations like Russia and China (and India, Brazil) are unloading US Treasuries and increasing gold and silver holdings. This is tied to concerns about the dollar’s reliability and the reduced faith in paper promises. The BRICS countries reportedly plan a currency tied to gold, with components of their reserves backing individual BRICS currencies, signaling a structural move away from the dollar. - The paper-gold issue is central: for every ounce of real gold, there is a range of 20-to-1 to 100-to-1 in paper gold. This disparity can undermine trust in the paper promise and create a run on physical gold. The price gap between New York (lower) and Shanghai (higher) for gold demonstrates a market dislocation and growing demand for physical metal. - Glenn emphasizes that a unipolar dollar system allows the US to run large deficits via inflation, which acts as a hidden tax on global dollar holders. Weaponizing the dollar through sanctions challenges trust and accelerates decoupling, prompting other nations to seek alternatives to reduce exposure. - Johnson argues that the US is confronting a historic realignment: the Bretton Woods order is dissolving, the dollar’s international dominance is waning, and sanctions and coercive policies are provoking pushback. He highlights Japan as a major remaining dollar treasuries holder that is now offloading, further increasing dollar supply and depressing its value. - The geopolitical implications are significant. Johnson warns that potential US actions against Iran—given their strategic position and the Gulf oil supply—could trigger a severe global disruption, including a price surge in oil. He notes that such actions would complicate global stability and magnify inflationary pressures. - The discussion also covers NATO’s cohesion, Western attempts to shape global alignments, and how rapidly shifting leverage could undermine existing alliances. Johnson suggests that Russia’s strategic gains in the war in Ukraine, combined with Western missteps, may prompt a rapid reevaluation of settlements and borders, while also noting that Russia’s position has hardened. - On Venezuela, Johnson argues that the stated pretexts (drug trafficking, oil control) were questionable and points to economic motives, including revenue opportunities for political allies like Paul Singer, and to Greenland’s strategic interests as possible motivators for US actions. - Looking ahead, Johnson predicts hyperinflation for the United States as the dollar loses value globally, while gold and silver retain value. He asserts that the ruble and yuan may hold value better, and that a mass shift toward de-dollarization is likely to continue, potentially culminating in a new multipolar financial order. - Both speakers agree that trust and predictability are crucial; the current trajectory—threats, sanctions, and unilateral actions—undermines trust and accelerates the move toward alternative currencies and stronger physical-commodity holdings. The overall tone is that a pivotal, watershed moment is unfolding in the global monetary system.

Ironically, it’s happening organically outside of BRICS anyway. For example, Enbridge and Brazil trade with China 48% in non-dollar terms. Russia–China trade is 95% in rubles and renminbi. Russia also trades with India similarly. BRICS is not driving this alone; these are individual developments. BRICS, a bit more than a decade ago, was the first to implement a framework agreement between them to move toward using national currencies more. It was still a time of less turbulence in the international scene, and the move was not for each country at once but addressed different pockets of activity. China, at that point, not only advanced this BRICS framework agreement but also struck agreements with 22 countries outside BRICS to use the renminbi. Russia did not abandon the dollar; it started using its own currency and other currencies as well. The aim was not to be against the dollar but to avoid being ordered by others about what they should or should not do. This shift occurred before Trump, though Trump contributed to the trend as well; the speaker notes they cannot simply blame Biden. The era of dollar and SWIFT being used as a weapon began to become explicit. The claim is that the dollar was promoted as a public good available to everyone no matter what happened, and then that expectation was broken. Russia has faced the most sanctions, over 20,000 in total, and the speaker suggests there may be more to come. There is large pressure from the US on each country. The UAE is mentioned as being cautious about moving too far, but each BRICS member now understands that this could be turned against them as well. That awareness is driving the direction toward greater use of national currencies and non-dollar transactions.

During Trump's presidency, he formed strategic connections with Russia, China, India, and Brazil to create a more balanced trade system called the level playing field. This system aimed to eliminate currency devaluations and trickery. Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of England, proposed a global virtual currency to replace the petrodollar at a Federal Reserve meeting in Jackson Hole. Trump had already established this trade agreement before the pandemic. It is possible that the Americas and the European Union will also align with the UK, as they did under Trump's administration. This is an important development to watch.

Nation states should pay more attention to the rise of cryptocurrency. Bitcoin was created by engineers who were dissatisfied with the unfairness of the financial crisis and wanted to create a better form of money. They used the Internet and cryptography to develop an immutable ledger, a bank in cyberspace where people can store their money without trusting each other, the government, or any corporation. There are 21 million coins in this system, and no more can be created. The identity of the founder is not important because Bitcoin needs to be a decentralized currency. However, the mining of new coins has the potential to undermine currencies, destabilize nations, and challenge the role of the US dollar as the reserve currency.

Speaker 0 argues that Venezuela may not want to ally with this Western form of economic exchange, noting they have tried to join BRICS twice but were vetoed by neighboring Brazil. They describe Venezuela as one of the few countries not controlled by private equity oligarchs and central banksters, and say Venezuela pushed back on a monetary exchange that relies on high-interest promissory notes back to Rothschild Boulevard, like Saddam Hussein, Bashar al-Assad, and Muammar Gaddafi. They claim Maduro has effectively been kidnapped, and that Trump said, “kidnapped is fine.” The question is how such events can be real and presented as beneficial to Americans, asserting that economically, there is no benefit to the average citizen or to national security, and that it puts the United States in more imminent, grave danger as the U.S. “agitates around the world,” including in relation to Israel’s enemies. Speaker 1 adds that there will be a political and economic reset, suggesting that silver and gold are at record highs and that gold and silver have tripled historically in short periods, leading to a system reset of sorts. They say Venezuela’s attempts to join the system were to be part of a new framework that Russia, China, Iran and BRICS were trying to create, which would go against the dollar as the global reserve currency and directly affect the U.S. economy. They ask whether this should change. Speaker 0 elaborates that the issue is about flipping countries into the same central banker–controlled monetary exchange system. Speaker 1 notes that Trump, from day one, warned that if you mess with the U.S. dollar or trade outside of the dollar, the U.S. will punish you via sanctions or strikes, and that this is what has been happening. They discuss the possibility that if the system resets and a combination of gold, silver, and possibly crypto or other minerals backs a new dollar or digital currency emerges, the entire game could reset and eliminate these types of issues. In such a scenario, countries might have a looser ability to choose or replace the type of system their country is under.

What if an organization like Ericsson controlled the internet? It raises questions about how a non-government entity could hold a government hostage through its monetary system. This situation has already occurred with the current system, particularly with the Federal Reserve and SWIFT, which operates privately. For instance, withdrawing over $10,000 from a bank often prompts questions about the purpose. Debanking is also becoming common. A personal example is the 2019 shutdown of Lebanon's Central Bank, which left many without access to their funds, while local politicians managed to retrieve theirs. People often remain unconcerned until a crisis directly impacts them, similar to the 2008 real estate crash, highlighting how governance and private sectors often disregard individual concerns until they face legal consequences.

Jeffrey Sachs argues that "economic statecraft" is a euphemism for coercion, describing it as "war by economic means" used largely by the United States to crush other economies rather than to promote development or cooperation. He notes that treasury officials have framed it proudly as a tool to bring about regime change, citing Scott Besent’s Davos remarks about crushing the Iranian economy to foment change. Sachs emphasizes that this machinery is "warfare" aimed at destruction, not at improving well-being or enriching the United States, and it has real human costs—driving impoverishment, health crises, and rising mortality. To understand this tool, Sachs situates it within American imperial practice, which he says relies on indirect rule through puppet regimes rather than outright territorial conquest. He traces the lineage to the late 19th and early 20th centuries, including the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii, the phasing of interventions in Latin America under the Monroe Doctrine’s Roosevelt Corollary, and the 1954 Guatemalan coup against Jacobo Arbenz. He cites Lindsey O’Rourke’s Covert Regime Change, which counted 64 covert regime-change operations by the United States between 1947 and 1989. Economic statecraft, in his view, can function as a regime-change instrument by weakening an economy enough to destabilize a government, facilitating CIA-led or CIA-backed interventions, sometimes wrapped as color revolutions. In the Venezuela case, Sachs traces the shift from a failed 2002 coup attempt to economic coercion as the primary mechanism of pressure. He explains how Venezuela’s oil wealth, once seen as the world’s largest reserves, interacted with U.S. corporate and political power—ExxonMobil and Chevron among them—and how that dynamic fed efforts to topple the Chávez/Maduro governments. He describes the sequence starting with 2014 color-revolution attempts, the role of U.S. funding and media operations via organizations like the National Endowment for Democracy, and the crackdown that followed protests. Sanctions escalated under Obama with the designation of Venezuela as a national security emergency and intensified under Trump, including confiscating foreign-exchange reserves, freezing accounts, and declaring PDVSA under sanction. This culminated in Severe economic collapse: oil production fell about 75% from 2016 to 2020, currency and import capacities deteriorated, and per-capita output dropped by about two-thirds, which Sachs characterizes as "worse than a war." He also points to Trump’s unorthodox actions, such as naming Juan Guaidó as president in IMF context, signaling a unilateral reshaping of legitimacy. For Iran, Sachs describes decades of comprehensive sanctions and Trump’s renewed push to crush the economy using OFAC and extraterritorial sanctions. He cites Scott Besant’s interview claiming that by December, the currency had plummeted and dollar shortages followed, framing this as a deliberate regime-change strategy. He notes that mainstream media largely omitted the causal narrative—U.S. role in provoking protests—despite Besant’s public account. Looking ahead, Sachs discusses the multi-polarity challenge. He suggests that the dollar's dominance is waning as alternative settlement systems emerge, such as non-dollar currencies and parallel institutions, notably driven by China and BRICS members. He envisions a shift toward non-dollar settlements—potentially 25% of global transactions within ten years—enabled by digital settlements and new infrastructure that reduces the reach of U.S. extraterritorial sanctions. However, achieving this requires new, dollar-independent institutions, since existing banks remain reluctant to abandon dollar-based business due to sanctions risk. He concludes by noting that the United States’ heavy-handed currency policy may not be sustainable in the long run, as sanctions reach could lessen once non-dollar settlement networks gain traction. The host closes, recognizing this as a pivotal moment where U.S. coercion could either deter rivals or precipitate broader self-harm, and thanks Sachs for his insights.

The speaker discusses the expansion of the BRICS group, which now includes Argentina, Egypt, Ethiopia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and UAE. They argue that the BRICS countries are becoming increasingly influential in the global economy, with a larger share of global GDP and oil production compared to the G7. The speaker also highlights the strategic trade routes controlled by BRICS and their goal of settling trades in local currencies to bypass the US dollar. They emphasize that BRICS aims for economic sovereignty and independence from the US, particularly due to the weaponization of the dollar. The speaker acknowledges that there are challenges to overcome, but believes recent events have motivated BRICS to take action.

Any BRICS state that mentions the destruction of the dollar will be charged a 150% tariff, and the U.S. does not want their goods.

On December 9, 2022, Xi Jinping reportedly stated during a state visit to Riyadh that Palestine should be addressed as a state with 1967 borders and a capital in Jerusalem, a claim not covered by Western media but reported in Middle East press. In the afternoon, he invited the six Gulf Cooperation Council states to trade oil and gas in Shanghai for yuan, signaling the end of the Bretton Woods system. The speaker published a commentary on their website asserting that Bretton Woods ended that day, a claim they felt Western media ignored, leading them to develop multicurrency mercantilism as a handbook for understanding future developments. The alternative to the dollar, according to the speaker, is the dollar plus all other currencies and commodities. The ruble, yuan, rand, UAE dirham, Malaysian ringgit, or any currency that two parties to a transaction accept, along with gold, oil, and recently silver and other commodities, can serve as stores of value or economic inputs. The transition to alternatives could be stable unless there is wider war. Historically, transitions from a hegemonic currency to a rival currency have been accompanied by world wars. The dollar replaced sterling after World War I and established dominance after World War II. The central question is whether a new hegemon will emerge and how the United States’ willingness to use violence to preserve hegemony will fare given its growing economic dependence on China and vulnerability. China is not forcing use of the yuan; it invites use, but participants are not obligated. Globalization, the speaker argues, accelerates as more than 40% of the global economy under sanctions (e.g., Iran, Russia) gains optionality to use other currencies, re-integrating with global trade. Russia is engaging in substantial trade with India and China, selling oil and gas, while Iran trades with China as its main oil buyer. Venezuela, previously a major oil supplier to China, faced sanctions; the speaker notes it was invaded yesterday, implying altered trade dynamics. The “Angel Paradox,” named after Norman Angell, posits that sanctions harm the sanctioner more than the sanctioned when interdependent economies go to war; this paradox has been reinforced, particularly with Russia, which has become more sovereign and less dependent on Europe after 19 rounds of sanctions, emerging stronger and contributing to Russia becoming the world’s fourth-largest economy, with the ruble performing well in 2025. Europe, the speaker contends, has weakened due to energy costs, and 19 rounds of sanctions have diminished its growth and industrial capacity. The concept of resiliency, stability, and inflation is highlighted: trading in one’s own currency with partner currencies yields more predictable flows, reduces volatility, and may lower inflation while enabling steadier long-run growth. The speaker notes that more countries have moved to local currency trade since 2022, illustrating the ongoing shift away from hegemonic currencies. Speaker 1 adds that Russia did not anticipate SWIFT exclusion and responded by mandating ruble payments for oil and gas, accelerating the development and globalization of Russia’s own payment system, MIRS, akin to SIPs, and praising Central Bank Governor Elvira Nebolmina for stabilizing the transition.

Tomorrow, the BRICS summit begins in South Africa, marking a significant moment in the shift of global power. The agenda includes discussions on currency, trade, military cooperation, AI, microchips, and infrastructure. The BRICS nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) are poised to dominate the global economy, with Goldman Sachs predicting their dominance by 2050. The United States, Britain, and Germany are notably absent from the summit. The focus is on reducing reliance on the US dollar as a reserve currency, with a gold-backed currency being introduced. Additionally, BRICS aims to lead in AI, with China already declaring its ambition to become the global leader by 2030.

The fallout with India will cause repercussions for America. It will push India away from America, strengthening the Eastern bloc of Russia, China, India, and the rest of the world under BRICS. Dedollarization will become a reality.

Mario and Jeff discuss what the current geopolitical and monetary environment means for gold, the US dollar, and the broader system that underpins global finance. - Gold and asset roles - Gold is a portfolio asset that does not compete with the dollar; it competes with the stock market and tends to rise when people are concerned about risky assets. It is a “safe haven store value” rather than a monetary instrument aimed at replacing the dollar. - Historically, gold did not reliably hedge inflation in 2021–2022 when the economy seemed to be recovering; in downturns, gold becomes more attractive as a store of value. Recent moves up in gold price over the last two months are viewed as pricing in multiple factors, including potential economic downturn and questionable macro conditions. - The dollar and de-dollarization - The eurodollar system is a vast, largely ledger-based network of US-dollar balances held offshore, allowing near-instantaneous movement of funds. It is not simply “the euro,” and it predates and outlived any single country’s policy. Replacing it would be like recreating the Internet from scratch. - De-dollarization discussions are driven more by political narratives than monetary mechanics. Central banks selling dollar assets during shortages is a liquidity management response, not a repudiation of the dollar. - The dollar’s dominance remains intact because there is no ready substitute meeting all its functions. Replacing the dollar would require replacing the entire set of dollar functions across global settlement, payments, and liquidity provisioning. - Bank reserves, reserves composition, and the size of the eurodollar market - The share of US dollars in foreign reserves has declined, but this is not seen as a meaningful signal about the system’s functionality or dominance; the real issue is the level of settlement and liquidity, which remains heavily dollar-based. - The eurodollar market is enormous and largely offshore, with little public reporting. It is described as a “black hole” that drives movements in the system and is extremely hard to measure precisely. - Current dynamics: debt, safety, and liquidity - The debt ceiling and growing US debt are acknowledged as concerns, but the view presented is that debt dynamics do not destabilize the Treasury market as long as demand for safety and liquidity remains high. In a depression-like environment, US Treasuries are still viewed as the safest and most liquid form of debt, which sustains their price and keeps yields relatively contained. - Gold is safe but not highly liquid as collateral; Treasuries provide liquidity. Central banks use gold to diversify reserves and stabilize currencies (e.g., yuan), but Treasuries remain central to collateral needs in a broad financial system. - China, the US, and global growth - China’s economy faces deflationary pressures, with ten consecutive quarters of deflation in the Chinese GDP deflator, raising questions about domestic demand. Attempts to stimulate have had limited success; overproduction and rebalancing efforts aim to reduce supply to match demand, potentially increasing unemployment and lowering investment. - The US faces a weakening labor market; recent job shedding and rising delinquencies in consumer and corporate credit markets heighten uncertainty about the credit system. This underpins gold’s appeal as a store of value. - China remains heavily dependent on the US consumer; despite decoupling rhetoric, demand for Chinese goods and the global supply chain ties keep the US-China relationship central to global dynamics. The prospect of a Chinese-led fourth industrial revolution (AI, quantum computing) is viewed skeptically as unlikely to overcome structural inefficiencies of a centralized planning model. - Gold, Bitcoin, and alternative systems - Bitcoin is described as a Nasdaq-stock-like store of value tied to tech equities; it is not seen as a robust currency or a wide-scale payment system based on liquidity. It could, in theory, be a superior version of gold someday, but today it behaves like other speculative assets. - The conversation weighs the potential for a shift away from the eurodollar toward private digital currencies or a mix of public-private digital currencies. The idea that a completely decentralized system could replace the eurodollar is acknowledged as a long-term possibility, but currently, stablecoins are evolving toward stand-alone viability rather than a wholesale replacement. - The broader arc and forecast - The trade war is seen as a redistribution of productive capacity rather than a definitive win for either side; macroeconomic outcomes in the 2020s are shaped by monetary conditions and the eurodollar system’s functioning more than by policy interventions alone. - The speakers foresee a future with multipolarity and a gradually evolving monetary regime, possibly moving from the eurodollar toward a suite of digital currencies—some private, some public—while gold remains a key store of value in times of systemic risk. - Argentina, Russia, and Europe - Argentina’s crisis is framed as an outcome of eurodollar malfunctioning; IMF interventions offer only temporary stabilization in the face of ongoing liquidity and deflationary pressures. - Russia remains integrated with global finance through channels like the eurodollar system, even after sanctions; the resilience of energy sectors and external support from partners like China helps it endure. - Europe is acknowledged as facing a difficult, depressing outlook, reinforcing the broader narrative of a challenging global macro environment. Overall, gold is framed as a prudent hedge within a complex, interconnected, and evolving eurodollar system, with no imminent replacement of the dollar in sight, while the path toward a multi-currency or digital-currency future remains uncertain and gradual.

Jeff: Gold is not a monetary instrument the way people often think. It’s actually easy to understand once you move away from the idea that gold is tied to dollar inflation. Gold is simply a portfolio asset, a store of value, and the preeminent safe haven store value. Gold doesn’t compete with the dollar; it competes with the stock market or risky credit markets. The notion of “de-dollarization” largely comes from political context rather than monetary mechanics. Mario: So gold prices rising—how should we think about that trade? Jeff: Gold tends to go up when people are concerned about risky assets because it’s a safe haven. It performed poorly as an inflation hedge in 2021–2022 when the economy seemed to recover and policymakers seemed to have hit the right policy mix. Now, with conditions leaning toward an economic downturn and “Nvidia AI stocks” looking bubbly, gold has revived as a safe haven. The last two months reflect the factors I’ve cited being priced into the gold market. Mario: People talk about the death of the US dollar. Is gold not tied to that? Jeff: They’ve been talking about de-dollarization for twenty years. The dollar remains dominant because there is no replacement for its functions; replacing it would be like recreating the Internet from scratch. The Eurodollar system grew because it could meet many needs in a flexible way, including for asset-holders who want to keep things in US-dollar terms. If you’re trying to hide assets, you keep them in US-dollar terms, and there are places to do so. Mario: The dollar’s share of foreign reserves has fallen from 72% to 58% in recent years. Doesn’t that show a shift away from the dollar? Jeff: That drop isn’t necessarily meaningful for reserve mechanics. What matters is the level of settlement and payments, which are still 90% in US dollars. The yuan is rising in FX settlements, but it’s not replacing the dollar; it’s competing with other currencies on the other side of the dollar. The dollar is as dominant as ever, and there’s no easy replacement because you’d have to replace all its functions. Replacing the dollar network would be like recreating the Internet—massive, complex, and gradual. Mario: What about the Eurodollar market itself? How big is it? Jeff: Nobody knows. It’s offshore, regulatory offshore, with little reporting; it’s a black hole. Eurodollars are “numbers on a screen,” ledger money, not physical dollars. The Eurodollar system lets money move quickly worldwide through bank-ledger networks, integrating various ledgers. It’s the global settlement mechanism, and its size is effectively unknowable, yet it’s the currency the world uses. Mario: Why do central banks buy gold now, especially China? Jeff: Gold is a portfolio asset, a diversification tool. Central banks must diversify reserves; they still need some US Treasuries for the eurodollar system, but gold helps balance risk. In China’s case, gold supports yuan stability and diversifies reserves beyond US assets. Mario: What happens if a conflict with China disrupts the system? What replaces the dollar or the eurodollar plumbing? Jeff: It’s the great unknown. If there’s a real shooting war, China could be cut off by many, and the dollar system would shrink to those willing to participate. The eurodollar would strengthen as a settlement medium, though with a smaller global footprint. The idea of replacing the eurodollar with a Chinese-led system is unlikely; gold’s role in cross-border settlement remains limited, and gold alone isn’t a reliable settlement instrument. Mario: Is China building a “gold corridor” to decouple from the dollar? Jeff: The gold corridor theory reflects ongoing speculation. There have been many schemes—Petro-dollar, digital currencies, Belt and Road—that have not proven game-changing in defeating the dollar system. Gold in that context is not a robust settlement mechanism across geographies; the eurodollar system arose to move away from gold settlement. Mario: Why are people hoarding gold? How does the US debt situation affect the dollar’s safety? Jeff: US debt is a concern, but safety and liquidity demand still drives demand for government debt, not gold. Gold is safe but illiquid as collateral; liquidity is why Treasuries remain central. The debt grows, but the treasury market has remained robust because it’s the deepest market and the safest liquid asset. The larger risk lies in the federal government's expanding footprint and the potential debt trap, where stimulus doesn’t spur growth and leads to rising debt. Mario: What about Bitcoin as a store of value? And how about Russia? Jeff: Bitcoin behaves like a Nasdaq stock—more of a store of value tied to tech equities than a broad currency. It’s not likely to become a widespread medium of exchange. Russia remains connected to the US system; it’s less about the Russian economy collapsing and more about how energy and sanctions interact. The eurodollar system has kept Russia afloat through channels like the UAE, and it’s unlikely that Russia’s fate hinges on a single currency shift. Mario: Will the US empire fall or evolve into a multipolar world? Jeff: Likely a multipolar world, not a complete fall of the US empire. I’m long-term optimistic on the US and global economy. The eurodollar system could slowly be replaced by private digital currencies, with stablecoins evolving toward independence. The transition would be gradual, with multiple private digital currencies emerging, while the eurodollar would persist in a rump form if needed.

What if an organization like Ericsson controlled the internet? It raises concerns about non-government actors potentially holding governments hostage through monetary systems. This has already occurred with the Federal Reserve and the private nature of systems like SWIFT. For instance, withdrawing large sums from banks often leads to intrusive questions, and debanking is becoming more common. A personal example is the 2019 Central Bank shutdown in Lebanon, where many lost access to their funds, while local politicians managed to retrieve theirs. People often remain unconcerned until they are personally affected, similar to the 2008 real estate crash, highlighting how governance and private sectors operate until individual interests are at stake.