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In this episode of Conversations with Tyler, host Tyler Cowen interviews Ben Westhoff, author of *Fentanyl, Inc.* and *Original Gangsters*. They discuss the geographic variations in drug use, particularly fentanyl, which is spreading from New England to California in the U.S. due to distribution networks. Westhoff explains that while fentanyl is trafficked from China, Mexican cartels play a significant role in its distribution. He highlights the local nature of drug use, noting that in places like St. Louis, fentanyl is cheap and prevalent, while in West Virginia, pills like Oxycontin dominate. Westhoff attributes the delayed spread of fentanyl to the internet, which allowed rogue chemists to access scientific papers and create potent analogues. He discusses the historical context of the opioid crisis, emphasizing the reclassification of pain as a vital sign, which led to over-prescription of opioids. The conversation touches on the societal impacts of addiction, particularly among marginalized communities, and the need for harm reduction strategies. They also explore international examples of drug policy, such as Portugal's decriminalization success and New Zealand's legalization of synthetic drugs. Westhoff argues that addressing addiction as a disease rather than a criminal issue could lead to better outcomes. The discussion concludes with reflections on the complexities of drug policy and the ongoing challenges posed by synthetic drugs like fentanyl.

This week, Shawn Ryan interviews Ioan Grillo, an investigative journalist focused on cartels, particularly the Sinaloa and Jalisco New Generation cartels. They discuss the recent power dynamics in Mexico, including the Mexican government's capitulation to the Sinaloa cartel, which led to the release of El Chapo's son, Ovidio Guzmán, after a violent confrontation with security forces. Grillo details a significant military operation on January 5, where the Mexican army engaged cartel members in a rural area, resulting in casualties on both sides. The operation coincided with President Biden's visit to Mexico, raising questions about its timing and whether it was a strategic move to showcase the government's efforts against cartels. The conversation shifts to the complexities of cartel operations, including their control over local governments and the intertwining of criminal organizations with state authorities. Grillo highlights the ongoing violence, with cartels employing brutal tactics to instill fear and maintain control, including public displays of violence reminiscent of medieval warfare. They discuss the rise of fentanyl trafficking, which has drastically increased overdose deaths in the U.S. The conversation touches on the challenges of combating this crisis, including the difficulties of enforcing border security and the inefficiencies of the U.S. and Mexican governments in addressing organized crime. Grillo emphasizes the need for comprehensive law enforcement strategies, crime prevention programs targeting youth, and addressing the economic motivations behind cartel activities. He notes the importance of understanding the social dynamics that lead young individuals to join cartels, often due to lack of opportunities and the allure of power and money. The discussion also covers the fragmented nature of cartel operations, with various factions often at odds with each other, leading to intra-cartel violence. Grillo explains how cartels can simultaneously engage in brutal tactics while also attempting to win over local populations through acts of charity, creating a complex relationship with communities. As they conclude, Grillo reflects on the potential future of organized crime in Latin America, drawing parallels with the situation in El Salvador, where the government has taken a hardline approach against gangs, leading to mass incarcerations. He warns that similar tactics might emerge in Mexico as the government struggles to regain control over powerful cartels. The episode highlights the intricate and violent landscape of cartel operations in Mexico, the challenges faced by law enforcement, and the urgent need for effective strategies to combat the growing influence of organized crime.

Luis Chaparro, an investigative journalist, discusses his experiences with drug trafficking, particularly focusing on the fentanyl crisis and cartel operations in Mexico. He shares that the precursors for fentanyl production primarily come from China and Germany. Chaparro has embedded himself with cartel members and has witnessed arms deals between the DEA and cartels, revealing a complex relationship where the DEA sometimes trades weapons for information on kingpins. Chaparro grew up in Ciudad Juarez, a city deeply affected by cartel violence, which shaped his career in journalism. He began reporting on cartel activities at a young age and faced significant dangers, including being kidnapped by local police after exposing corruption. His experiences led him to develop safety protocols and a network of sources within the cartel world. He describes the fentanyl production process, emphasizing how small, mobile labs are set up to evade law enforcement. These labs operate quickly, producing large quantities of fentanyl that are then smuggled into the U.S. The cooks often have short life expectancies due to the toxic nature of the chemicals they handle. Chaparro notes that the demand for stronger drugs drives the production of increasingly potent fentanyl, which is often mixed with heroin. Chaparro also highlights the role of U.S. citizens in drug smuggling operations, revealing how individuals are recruited to transport drugs across the border, often under the guise of legitimate work. He recounts a specific case of a woman from California who smuggles drugs to support her family, illustrating the desperation that drives people into these dangerous roles. Throughout the conversation, Chaparro emphasizes the horizontal structure of modern cartels, where operations are decentralized and individuals work independently rather than under a strict hierarchy. He discusses the ongoing arms trafficking issues, noting that firearms are easily accessible in Mexico, often rented rather than purchased outright. Chaparro's work has been featured in various documentaries, including pieces for Vice and CNN, where he explores the intersections of drug trafficking, arms deals, and the socio-economic factors driving these issues. He remains committed to shedding light on the realities of cartel operations and the impact on both sides of the U.S.-Mexico border.

Katarina Szulc, an investigative journalist, shares insights into her access to cartel members and the dynamics of organized crime in Mexico. She attributes her success to her genuine interest in the subject, a non-judgmental approach, and her ability to gain trust from those involved in organized crime. Szulc discusses the impact of Trump's designation of cartels as terrorist organizations, revealing that cartel members are largely unfazed, viewing it as a temporary issue tied to financial pipelines rather than a direct threat to their operations. She highlights a significant shift in cartel operations, indicating that much of the fentanyl production has moved from Mexico to Canada, where they exploit less stringent law enforcement and a vast, unmonitored border. Szulc details how the Sinaloa cartel has established labs in Canada, utilizing local organized crime networks to facilitate drug trafficking, while also emphasizing the challenges faced by Canadian law enforcement in addressing this issue. Szulc also discusses the cartels' diversification into other industries, such as agriculture and oil theft, noting that they have taken control of avocado orchards and are involved in stealing crude oil, generating billions in revenue. She explains how the cartels use propaganda, particularly through music and social media, to glamorize their lifestyle and recruit new members, often targeting impressionable youth. The conversation touches on the relationship between cartels and political figures, suggesting that corruption runs deep within the Mexican government, with cartels influencing policies that benefit their operations. Szulc expresses concern over the potential for violence if U.S. forces were to intervene in Mexico, as cartels would likely retaliate fiercely. She concludes by discussing the need for a multifaceted approach to combat cartels, emphasizing the importance of addressing the root causes of cartel influence, such as propaganda and financial pipelines, rather than merely targeting leadership figures. Szulc's work aims to shed light on the complexities of organized crime and its far-reaching implications on society.

Breaking Points dives into a US military strike off Venezuela over gangs like Tren de Aragua, designated as a foreign terrorist organization for drug trafficking. Rand Paul publicly pushes back on JD Vance’s defense of killing cartel members, arguing that even in a war, due process matters and people must have a trial and representation. The hosts note the claim of an imminent security threat while acknowledging that the strike was framed as regime-change-adjacent, with a $50 million bounty on Maduro and questions about evidence and what a 'war' means in practice. They reference the Obama-era drone killing of a US citizen without judicial review, linking it to the broader debate about due process and executive power. The panel also tackles fentanyl’s supply: most of the drug and precursors come from abroad, with the current framing centering on Venezuelan groups. They note that labeling Aragua as the sole source risks masking a broader trafficking network and potential regime-change aims. Glenn Greenwald’s critique of intervention rhetoric is cited to urge evidence-based scrutiny.

In this episode, Shawn Ryan interviews Luis Chaparro, who shares alarming insights about the Sinaloa cartel and the evolving drug crisis in the U.S. Chaparro reveals that a new drug, potentially a thousand times more potent than fentanyl, is being developed and introduced into the U.S. market. He discusses the role of Chinese chemists in aiding Mexican cartels to manufacture these drugs, emphasizing that the cartels are becoming increasingly sophisticated in their operations. Chaparro describes his recent experiences in Mexico, including visiting a fentanyl lab and a cartel training camp. He notes that many locals rely on cartel jobs due to the lack of economic opportunities in Mexico, with cartels providing better pay than traditional jobs. He explains that while cartels are involved in violent activities, they also engage in community support, such as distributing food baskets during holidays, which helps them gain local loyalty. The conversation shifts to the production of M30 pills, which are now primarily made from fentanyl rather than heroin. Chaparro highlights the scale of production, estimating that Culiacan alone could produce billions of pills annually. He discusses the dangers of these pills, which are often consumed unknowingly by users who believe they are taking heroin. Chaparro also touches on the cartel's influence on politics, noting how they are increasingly embedding themselves within government structures, effectively controlling local economies and politics. He warns that the situation is dire, with cartels operating as hybrid insurgencies rather than traditional drug trafficking organizations. The episode concludes with Chaparro expressing concern about the future, as the cartels continue to adapt and grow more powerful. He emphasizes the need for awareness and understanding of the complexities surrounding drug trafficking and its impact on both Mexico and the U.S.