reSee.it - Tweets Saved By @KTmBoyle

Saved - January 5, 2025 at 4:47 AM
reSee.it AI Summary
I'm grateful for Ben and Felicia's advocacy, which has turned Las Vegas into a testing ground for public safety technology. The outcomes have been impressive. We've shared these success stories, including insights from Sheriff Kevin McMahill on how tech is enhancing safety in our city.

@KTmBoyle - Katherine Boyle

Thanks to Ben and Felicia's advocacy and generosity, Las Vegas has become a testbed for public safety technology- and the results speak for themselves. We've been very public about these success stories at @a16z. Here's more with Sheriff Kevin McMahill on how technology is supporting public safety in Las Vegas.

Video Transcript AI Summary
On October 1, there were over 9,000 911 calls in just one minute, highlighting the challenges of emergency response. Garrett Langley shared a powerful story about how Flock Safety's technology helped locate a kidnapped baby in Atlanta, showcasing the impact of public safety technology. Sheriff Kevin McMahill discussed innovations in law enforcement, including the use of drones and gun detection technology, which have significantly improved safety and crime resolution rates in Las Vegas. Flock Safety operates in over 4,000 cities, solving about 22,100 crimes daily. The conversation emphasized the importance of community engagement and transparency in law enforcement, as well as the future potential of technology to enhance public safety and reduce crime.
Full Transcript
Speaker 0: When 1 October happened in the first minute, we had 9,009 11 calls. Speaker 1: Crazy. Speaker 0: There's no call center in the world that can handle 9,009 11 calls. Speaker 2: It is wonderful to be here today, seeing you all face to face, and to introduce our next panel. Because I truly believe that this panel embodies the spirit of American dynamism. Now I've known Garrett Langley for a very long time, back when Flock Safety was just a tiny company building v one of their products in Atlanta office. And I'm gonna share with you a story today because it is probably one of the most impactful stories that I have for my entire investing career. It was fall of 2020 at the height of COVID, and Garrett was going out for his first growth round. And I was being the most annoying investor. We had gone back and forth for about a week on diligence materials, hardware, software. Let me get a revert of the model. Let me talk to your customers. And Garrett, being the pro he is, responded like this, just constant back and forth, and it felt like we were really jamming. And then it was Saturday morning, and I sent a few emails and more data requests, and I didn't hear anything. Crickets. And hours went by, hours went by, and I just thought, oh my gosh, I've lost this deal. Like, there is no way that I'm gonna get to work with him, and I went to bed Saturday night thinking that it was over. And I woke up Sunday morning to the most shocking email I've ever received from a company, and I wanna paraphrase it for you. Garrett said, I'm so sorry, but I haven't gotten back to your responses, but we had an emergency request from Atlanta PD, and it was an all hands on deck moment for the team. A baby was out for a morning stroll with his mother in a low income neighborhood in Atlanta and and was snatched from his stroller by a husband and wife team that was premeditating a kidnapping because they intended to raise this baby as their own. They were so premeditated and looking for a sitting duck that they brought 2 sets of clothing, boys clothing and girl clothing, and immediately changed the baby after they snatched him from his mother and drove off in a car. Now, law enforcement officials will tell you, in the first 24 hours, if you do not find a child who can't talk or a baby, the likelihood that you are going to find a child who has been kidnapped in a premeditated fashion is very low. But Garrett delivered some good news. He said shortly after the kidnapping, flock safety cameras in Atlanta picked up the car and was able to follow that car across multiple counties and find that baby unharmed a couple hours later and bring him back to his mother and bring the perpetrators to justice. So when I received that email, I was expecting my first son, and so I just started bawling uncontrollably because there are so few exam or there's many examples, but so few examples like that where heinous crimes are perpetrated against humanity and against citizens, and where technology has helped be the solution in order to to bring people to justice and to make sure that babies go unharmed. And it made me proud to know Garrett, and it makes me extremely proud to be an investor in flock safety, and all of us in Andreessen Horowitz to be a major investor in flock safety. I'm also really proud of my partner, David Ullovich, who's led multiple rounds into block safety, and did so at a time where a lot of people didn't want to invest in public safety technology. It wasn't a popular thing to do, and it's because of him that I think we have a true public safety, not only practice at Andreessen Horowitz, but that there that that we have these companies such as PREPARED and Skydio, and companies that are working with multiple law enforcement agencies around the country to make communities safer. We are also very fortunate today to have a special guest, sheriff Kevin McMahill of Las Vegas, who has been an innovator in this community for 30 years in law enforcement. He started his career in the US Army, and then worked his way up through, Las Vegas PD. In 2010, he was assigned one of the hardest assignments, the highest crime neighborhood in Las Vegas to be leader and to bring the crime rate down. And through his innovative approaches of working with community leaders, faith based leaders, and others, he was able to bring crime down in that neighborhood by 40%. He was also in leadership during the mass shooting in 2017 and has delivered many innovations since that mass shooting in Las Vegas to make not only Las Vegas, but other areas safer. And in 2023, he was elected by a landslide election to be sheriff of Las Vegas. The world is getting less safe. Crime is rising, and it's not something that we wanna talk about. It's not something that we wanna think about. But it's because of public safety leaders, like the ones that are going to be on this stage, that we can have this important conversation about how technology can be used for good and to make our community safer. So without further ado, I'm pleased to introduce Garrett, David, and sheriff McMahill. Speaker 1: Thank you, Sheriff McMahill and Garrett for being with us. I'm gonna call you Kevin. Speaker 0: Please do. Speaker 1: It's okay? Okay. Look, let's just jump right in. Garrett, that was an amazing story that Catherine told us. One of the best parts of this job is getting emails from you about crimes that you've solved. Things that you've stopped from happening are getting worse. Tell us do you have more stories you can share with us? Speaker 3: Yeah. Most recently in, Wake Forest, they rolled out Flock, and within their first 24 hours, found 3 stolen cars, a missing child, and 2 automatic firearms on campus, which is alarming because, you would think a campus would be safer. I think the other one that was more recent, was just earlier this fall out in UCAL, Berkeley. And during freshman orientation, 5 individuals with semi automatic some semiautomatic Glocks stole this 18 year old's Jeep. Obviously, this was supposed to be the best day of this kid's life. He's now going to college, and now he's had the worst day of his life. But one of the powerful things about flock is it's really about a network. So criminals don't care about city boundaries, but for some reason, law enforcement has had always had a struggle sharing data. So in this case, when the student called in 911, he said, look, my jeep's been stolen. These guys have guns. The Berkeley PD is able to immediately put that into flock, and now everyone in the Bay Area has pretty much someone looking out for them. And within under an hour, that car gets off the highway in Palo Alto, who's also a flock customer. They get an alert. They know there's 5 individuals with semi automatic weapons in the car. SWAT team responds. Those people are now in jail. And I think it's that kind of story that sadly happens every day. Thankfully, not in your community every day, but those are 2 kind of more recent, crazy stories. Speaker 1: Sheriff, you were here during one of the worst mass shootings in US history, 6 years ago this month. Tell us a little bit about how how that day changed law enforcement in Las Vegas, how it impacts how you lead today, and even some of the technological changes that that have been implemented. Speaker 0: Yes, so that day was a day, obviously, that nobody will ever forget here in Las Vegas. And for a reminder, 58 people died that day and 2 subsequent. 422 other people were shot and survived, after being shot with an AR 15, and 850 people were injured. You know, getting the information, that particular day, it took us literally 3 or 4 days. I didn't even know until the 3rd day that 7 of our officers had been shot. That's how chaotic and how how much casualties that we were dealing with that particular day. You know, I will tell you that it it changed a lot. And we we began to teach around the country a variety of different things. Something as simple as instead of having all of your off duty paramedics respond to the scene, have them respond to the hospitals. Because we didn't know at the time that nurses can't run a main line, but a paramedic can. So we had nurses doing paramedics' jobs, doctors doing nurses' jobs. So we really fine tune that and taught that all across the country. Technology, that has come from that is things like ShotSpotter being able to tell us, you know, where those are at. The technology continues to, evolve, in these companies as well as being able to tell us what floor they're on, what room it's coming coming from. But also a lot of this, this ability to sort of capture when somebody's carrying a weapon into one of our casinos. So we have this technology now that we have deployed. I won't name the place, but we had one particular casino hotel that had become sort of a a haven for our gangsters here. They were having gang parties every single weekend. And, we had numerous shots fired, numerous people killed. Every time my cops responded over there, there was a big fight. And so we we put these gun or gun detection technology in the elevator banks before they got on the elevator. And in one weekend, after we deployed it, we found 60 handguns that were gonna be taken into a casino hotel. That's how out of control it got. That place is probably one of the safest places that we have now. And so that ability to share that technology across the, the spectrum here in Las Vegas has allowed each one of these casino companies to talk to one another to keep us safe more safe as we move forward. So that has really been a big benefit of that. Speaker 1: Thank you. That's that's incredible about the, the elevator bank. Garrett, switching back to you. I think what I don't think people know is size and scale of the company today. Can you just give us some highlights of of just how how large lock safety is and, how big of an impact it's having? Speaker 3: Yes. Definitely, we are one of the bigger, better, kept secrets, probably. I think if you're in law enforcement, you know exactly who we are, and you hopefully love us. Sheriff, in that in just Speaker 0: Got my vote. Speaker 3: But we're we're live in just over 4000 cities in America. So that's almost 70% of the population that's covered by by flock. And from efficacy, we solve about 22100 crimes a day, which is just around 10%. And so while we we will often pat ourselves on the back because we're at 10% of crime solved, it's like, well, without a detective, an officer, and a community, it all kinda falls apart. It takes 3 legs. You gotta have technology, sure, but you gotta have the other 2 in lockstep. Speaker 0: Do you mind if I jump in first? Please. Let me tell you one story about Flock that, really sort of resonated with me was I had a a shooting at one of my local high schools out the street, right out in front of the high school. And you can imagine that as the sheriff, and in any town USA, when you have a shooting outside of a high school, it causes you a lot of concern. Obviously, we're thinking active shooter. In this particular case, another piece of our technology, the shot spotter technology, was able to detect that over 60 rounds had been fired, and we knew that there were 2 vehicles that had been shooting. Flock had not yet even gone live in metro, but we had had these cameras deployed out. We just hadn't flipped the switch to actually turn them on. So my detectives and and utilizing all the investigative skills that we had, we really had nothing, other than to find out that we had 2 cars with multiple people in them and multiple different calibers of weapons being fired out in front of one of our local high schools. And I was, quite frankly, frustrated as hell because we had no leads. We had nothing to go on. One individual had been shot. A lot of times, people just get dropped off at a hospital with a gunshot wound, and they don't tell us anything about it. So we're trying to piece all this stuff together. So we got a hold of of you all and and Flock and turned it on, and and Flock was able to solve that crime for us before they'd even actually went out and done that. And so what I wanna tell you about this is is we've created what we call the real time crime center at Metro. You're all invited to come check it out sometime. It's one of the most fascinating things. I'm not a technologist by any stretch of the imagination. I barely know how to turn my phone on sometimes, to be honest with you. But I will tell you that this technology is changing the game. And with the advent of flock, we we are going to get to a place at some point where it becomes impossible to commit a crime because technology will help us resolve that. When you look at Las Vegas Metro today, we have over a 90% clearance rate on all of our homicides for 5 years in a row. You won't find that anywhere else in the United States of America. That's in part because of technology, in part because of great detectives and leadership that are actually making this work, but I want you to understand something about that. When you go to other cities like Chicago as an example, 30% of their homicides are resolved. If you believe you can get away with committing the most heinous crime in any of these cities, you are going to continue to commit those crimes. Bad guys know that when you come to Las Vegas, because of our abilities, technology being at the forefront of it, you are going to get caught. Speaker 1: Love that. Speaker 3: Well said. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1: I think people come to Vegas because it's a great place to come, and they feel safe here. And you've had a lot of a huge part of that. And you just talked about that a little bit. Talk to us a little bit about there's a lot of communities in Vegas. It's not just the Strip. It's one of the greatest tourist destinations in the country. But it's a lot more than just just the Strip. Talk to us a little bit about and you've had a long career here as a patrolman, working your way up all the way to under sheriff and then being elected sheriff. Talk to us a little bit about how you change the way that you lead and encourage your officers to lead, both with technology and community engagement, and the different strategies in these different micro areas in the in the greater Las Vegas region? Speaker 0: You know, one of the most interesting, parts about technology when we first started it, we started off with one crime camera. And, you know, I wasn't a big believer in it, but like any good leader that when you have people that are very, interested in getting something started and you just give them the opportunity to go do it. And I think one of the things that, you know, in the intro, they mentioned that I I had the opportunity to get assigned to the Bolden Area Command, which is West Las Vegas, our predominantly African American part of town. And what I learned when I started to work over there, it led in in every crime category that you don't wanna lead in. Robbery, homicide, sexual assault, gangs, you know, everything you don't want it to be in. And as I went over there to to understand and realize that I had 13 homicides in the 1st 6 months, and I had a 0% solve rate. And the people in the black community were saying that you don't really care about us, because the police typically have a very low solve rate in those communities, have a higher level of distrust for the police. And so every opportunity that we've had to deploy these these, technological solutions into their communities, it was met with a very high level of distrust. And as we really spent the time about educating them, but also one thing that we're not very good at is really showing them the success. Right? We don't like to celebrate this stuff, but we have to go out there and figure out a different way to talk to our communities about what this technology is doing so they don't think that we're spying on them, that they don't think that we're, you know, utilizing this technology for nefarious purposes. And once I have done that, I've been doing that since 2010, talking about this technology everywhere I possibly can within our community to groups like yourselves because this technology is, in my opinion, every piece of that technology is the equivalent of 3 police officers. It can get into places and see things and detect things that I don't care how good of a cop you are, you would never be able to see it. And, you know, I don't have the ability to show you a lot of this stuff right now, via video, but it can detect things that there's not a chance in hell. Any good cop worth their salt could have ever figured out without utilizing that technology. So it's a really exciting piece for me. Speaker 1: And your comment on the communities, just as a quick aside, when I first made the we've written multiple investments into Floxac H. But when I first made the very first invest investment, I actually called my sister who, has dedicated much more of her life to sort of, I would call them, I guess, social justice causes. And sometimes she's a good barometer for me of how I should think about things, that I might not think about in my normal frame of mind. And her initial reaction was like, oh, no, no, no, no. This is going to be surveillance that, you know, marginalized communities won't want this. And so in part of the diligence, we actually called into some of these community leaders and tried to find out what what do people really think. And what they find out is exactly what you said, that actually it makes policing more objective. It makes the solve rate go way up. And in fact, some of the biggest, advocates for flock safety, in communities with high crime rates are those community leaders for more marginalized communities. And that was something I didn't expect, but we now see over and over again. Speaker 0: And Speaker 1: so on that on that note, Garrett, you know, how has been engaging with communities, across the United States and in all kinds of different from all kinds of different backgrounds, how has that impacted the way you think about your product road map? You're not just building a company, but you're building something that gets put into communities and has a huge impact. Talk to us about how that engagement has shaped your roadmap. Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I think to your point, the underlying shift that's occurring in law enforcement, historically, the way they operate is they knew what neighborhoods had crime. They would drive around in those neighborhoods looking for someone doing something wrong. So it's like, alright, suspicious people, suspicious activity. There's just, like, it's ripe for prejudice. And the chief was describing to me how since they've rolled out Flock, they're too busy to do that. And he was he was excited. Right? He was excited because now, to Sherif's point, it's objective. That that car is stolen. That car has a warrant. There's no debate about who they don't really care who's inside. They're about to go find out. And it was this interesting shift where now this law enforcement agency was not only more effective, they needed less people. They were also delivering a more equate a kind of equitable product to their community. Because they could say, look. We don't have time to go fish anymore. All we do is wait for the ding in the car that says, hey. There's a stolen car down the street. Go get them. And so I think for us, David, like, one of the things we've spent a lot of time on is, look, we have incredibly blue cities, incredibly red cities. We have purple cities. We've got from Berkeley, California to to Dallas, Texas to Dallas, Georgia, which is a a beautiful city, if you're ever in the middle of nowhere in Georgia. And all different political spectrums, but they all have the same desire, which is to be safe, and they want their kids to be safe. And so what we've spent a lot of time building is kind of 2 directions. 1 is how do we drive more transparency in law enforcement? Because to the sheriff's point, we've unfortunately trained law enforcement to be afraid of the media. Because the only time the sheriff gets phone calls is when something really, really bad has happened. And where we spend time is trying to coach and encourage chiefs and sheriffs to cover the the positive stuff too. Like, you're solving so much crime and making such a positive impact. It's okay to talk about it. And when you have this backbone of transparency and auditing that you know there's gonna be a bad apple, that's fine. The the law enforcement's not perfect. No one's perfect. It's worth it. And I think the second thing we've spent a lot of time on is, you know, we will go have and and the sheriff and I will have a breakfast. We had this back in November. And I'm like, sheriff, tell me the top three crimes you didn't solve this year. And, like, okay. That's what I'm gonna go build. Because the data is the sheriff was alluding to is the only way to actually eliminate crime, which is our goal, is to solve it. And so what we have found is the only correlation between a drop in crime is an increase in clearance rate. So the reason why sheriff runs such a safe city is because he clears his cases. So for us, that's our kind of overall product strategy is show me a list of crimes that aren't being solved in a city, and we'll go build technology to change that. Speaker 1: Sheriff, what about drones? What what role are drones playing in, in law enforcement? And, and then, actually, if if you if you hold your part of your answer, we're gonna talk about where that might go in the future. Speaker 0: Yeah. I'm smiling because I I just I always laugh at at at this stuff because I I I've been doing this job 33 years now, and I just never really imagined where we were gonna find ourselves. And and I have to say, building off of what Garrett was talking about, one of the things that really attracted me to the technology of this, however, is the the the mindset that I have a duty and a responsibility. I have 6,000 employees. I'm the 7th largest police department in this country. I have 58,000,000 visitors and 2 and a half 1000000 permanent residents. I have a responsibility to those officers to keep them safe also. And and let me tell you, in 2010, we shot and killed 25 people. Right now, year to date, we've shot 6. And I attribute that, not only to exceptional training and leadership, but to the ability to utilize technology effectively, so that we approach these armed individuals in a markedly different way than we ever have. And so, now, this this drone piece that enters into it, we started off with drones, we were using them in SWAT operations. Fly a little drone through the door, they got defeated quite frankly, oftentimes by the bad guy, but get the drone through the door so we could have eyes and ears in for my operators, because I'm I'm sending human beings through a door with an armed subject. So I need to slow these things down and gather intelligence and do the things that will keep these men and women safe. And so we did all of that. And now, today, as we sit here right now, we have a drone as a first responder program, where I have, Can Speaker 1: you can you explain what what DFR, what drone as a first responder, what that means? Speaker 0: Well, you might wanna take a shot at that better than I can, but I can tell you what I know. Go for it. Speaker 3: Yeah. To to me, the really similar way to explain it is, humans are very good at a lot of things, But you gotta imagine you've got a 19 year old entering into a high stressful situation. They've got a gun, potentially. Someone else has a gun. The best thing you can do is deescalate as fast as possible. It's much easier to do that from a drone where no one's life is at risk. I also think the thing that we keep track of on the DFR perspective is the average response time to a 911 call is inflated due to the number of unnecessary calls of service. Sending a drone is a lot cheaper. It's a lot faster. So you imagine sheriff's got 6,000, officers. That number sounds really big. How many do you have actually on active patrol at any given time? A third? Speaker 0: Half of that. Speaker 3: Yeah. Half? So there's really only 3,000 that are actually serving right now. With a DFR program, the sheriff can effectively double his head count, triple his head count from an efficiency by having drones respond first, assess the situation, and then decide, is this nothing, you know, turn off the alert, or is this this necessitates a human reaction? Speaker 0: So we have we have that piece of it going. We actually just rolled this out now. So we have a number of, units that are out there with the drones, and they'll launch, and they're they're responding to all the high priority calls for service, shots fired. We'll be on the other side, park the drone, throw the drone up. They go up. They get real time intelligence to the first responders. And and it's just an incredible opportunity for us to keep our officers safe, but also reduce the amount of suspects that are in the they're gonna end up dying because of their own actions. And so, you know, the other big part is is that we have the responsibility for search and rescue here in Southern Nevada. Mhmm. You know, we we fly in our helicopters up in these these canyons where it's unbelievable how close they actually get with their helicopter blades to these canyons. I'm talking literally half an inch, and, you know, it's a dangerous, dangerous business to be in, but we have a responsibility to save people's lives. And so there's an unbelievable, places to hike just within an hour here of Las Vegas, and there's a lot of activity up there. So we deploy those drones with the night vision, and, when it gets dark and we're able to locate these suspect or these victims that are up there, in ways without me having to put my officers in dangerous situations. And so that's another real great advantage for us as well. Speaker 1: Yeah. The the drone first responder program, just to, explain a few more details. What's happening today is being launched from the back of police vehicles. But I think we're very close to a moment in time where somebody can call 911, and a drone will be automatically dispatched from the roof of a police department to immediately provide eyes on the sky. Is this is the house on fire? Is it a 3 alarm fire? Is it a small fire in the kitchen? Immediately, as, you know, fire, medic, police are responding. And that that kind of situational awareness is unprecedented. And in regions like Las Vegas, it's great to have a few helicopters, but they can only respond to 1 incident at a time. If you have 2 copters, maybe 2 at a time. That's a tiny fraction of the 911 calls you get. And being able to launch a fleet of drones that can cover an area very quickly over a wide area, is really gonna transform, the way we respond and keep both officers safe and communities safer, and that that's very exciting. Speaker 0: I just have to highlight what you said here. I want you to imagine this. ShotSpotter technology detects a gunshot, somebody being shot in a neighborhood. The drone that's located on a business launches up overhead within 30 seconds. Back at the real time crime center, an officer is watching this, providing real time intelligence to those police officers who are now responding to go in to save lives and stop the suspect's actions. That is an absolute game changer in my profession. I'm so excited about that part. I can't even Me Speaker 1: too. That's true. That doesn't even need to be a 911 call. It's going Speaker 0: to be it'll beat 911 every time. Speaker 1: That's right. That's right. With more fidelity. Yeah. It's really an exciting time, I think as we introduce these advanced technologies into public safety. And we'll talk about 911, in just a moment. All right. So we talked about community engagement. And I mentioned, you know, when I first made the first investment, I talked to my sister, to get her pulse check, which she told me I was going to be a terrible person. Now, of course, she thinks it's amazing. You know, Flock is really and Garrett, this is really a testament to your leadership as a CEO because this could go any number of ways as a CEO of a company building, cameras with computer vision technology to find stolen vehicles. But you've really set the standard in public safety around privacy, protection, community engagement, data that you collect. Can you talk a little bit about how that works? And how do you answer to people that want to know about the sort of big brother concerns and surveillance state kind of concerns? You know, it's great to hear about all the safety, and obviously, we think that's the primary reason that's critical and worth it all. But how do you deal with the people that ask those important questions too? Speaker 3: Yeah. I think there's just 3 key points. I think the first is I've had the I think this is a benefit. I've probably met with a 1000 mayors in the last 5 years. And, like, we have an incredibly rich, diverse country. It's great. We can be different, but, like, our differences are so small in the spectrum of people's point of view on the world. Like, we all believe we should be safe, we should believe we have some some sets of liberties. And I live in 1, which is Atlanta. And so the way we think about it is, like, I don't set the rules in Austin. And so from a data retention, from a transparency, from an auditing, it's the Chief has a tough job in Austin. He has 7 days of data retention and he has to show up every single month and provide an audit of every single search that's conducted on his system. That's dramatically different than in Dallas or in Tulsa or in Oklahoma City where the the chief doesn't have to do that, and they have a 1 year data retention because that's what's appropriate for them. And and I'm sure the sheriff has his own set of rules that he feels is comfortable for his community. It's like we don't have to have the same thing. We should all agree that we feel safe. So the first is, like, we put the onus on the community to self manage. Like, the city council, the mayor, they were elected. When the sheriff, in this case, was elected to protect his community, we should give him those tools. I think the second thing is people have this misconceived notion that, we are, like, getting closer to precog or we're gonna predict a crime has happened. We don't do that as a business. So so the way we think about the business is creating a rules engine that allows people whose actual job as a detective, as an asset protection individual, to to to assess what is suspicious. Because I also think it's important to take a perceptive of, like, we've already given up the the traditional sense of privacy because we enjoy having Instagram and Facebook and the Internet. This is actually dramatically less, and we live in a pretty safe world, given those trade offs. Speaker 1: Absolutely. One question on that, just as a follow-up, because I think maybe not everyone knows. It's not just public safety organizations and law enforcement organizations that buy flock safety. HOAs in neighborhoods and even corporations will buy it, to put it in their parking lots and things like that. Can you talk about how that dynamic works a little bit? Speaker 3: If you look at most of our our our revenue concentration, it's pretty common that the community is spending more money on flock than the police department. So if I pull up the the Las Vegas map, you're gonna see the the sheriff's a 180 or so cameras, and they're gonna see all these other dots on the map. And you're like, oh, that's the Wynn Hotel. They added 4 cameras to cover their parking lot. The sheriff has access to those. He's getting alerts. It's it's a a symbiotic relationship where the Wynn Hotel is saying, we wanna be safe. We know it is your job. We know it is not a reasonable thing to ask you to put these cameras here. And that's the same for neighborhoods. It's the same for small business owners. It's this idea that if we work together, we can be much more powerful and successful. Speaker 1: Sheriff, tell tell us a little bit, about the process you go through, to roll out new technology in Las Vegas, both on the officer training side and maybe the challenges you have there that that we can we can know about and help with, but but how you've evolved that officer training process, but also the community engagement process. Speaker 0: So I I think it's interesting when you talk about privacy, as as Garrett mentioned. There really isn't a whole lot of privacy left in the world, in in the world that we live in today. And and people know that and understand it. What they really care about is whether or not the police department has access to this information. And so because they don't want us to be J Edgar Hoover's FBI, you know, building dossiers on people that are not doing anything. And I completely understand that. I agree with that. I think it's really interesting, and I think probably the single most effective way for us was that we engaged all of our critics from the very get go. We bring them down to the real time crime center. We allow them to to physically watch what is actually happening with the technologies. Probably the biggest, issue we had was along the facial recognition technology piece, and we we use facial recognition technology, but we only use it as a tool within an investigation, and we use it and we only bounce that facial recognition technology off of jail management system. So booking photos, people that have already been booked for a crime, and they have people understand that a lot better. Right? We're looking we're looking at Kevin McMayhill as having potentially committed a crime. There's a picture that looks like Kevin McMayhill. We put it in. We verify it, but that's you can't utilize that as probable cause, and you can't actively utilize cameras to actually utilize facial recognition technology. So groups like the ACLU, NAACP, we've just rolled the red carpet out to them to see every piece of technology we have and explain in those those investigations how the technology was utilized to actually help us develop the leads that good gumshoe detectives then have to use to follow-up in those in those pieces. Because they they they wanna start at, it's not effective, and it's there's a nefarious use for it. Once we get them in and let them see it, then they become our biggest proponents of it. And I don't have to spend a lot of time convincing anybody afterwards because they're out doing that themselves. Sure. Speaker 1: One more question with you, sheriff, and then we'll close with Garrett. You know, we talked about what does the future look like for law enforcement backstage from 911 to, you know, I don't know, robotics and Robocop. You know, what what would you what would you wanna see, if you could ask for anything or things that you'd love to see, introduced into your your, into your, position, to keep communities safe? Speaker 0: Well, you know, we have a robo dog already. Yep. So now we have this dog that we send in. Thing walks in. The guy can kick it over if he wants to. The dog can get back up and keep doing. Gives us the ability to communicate. I I, you know, I think people like you are the ones that are gonna be exposed to the things that we need, and you all will help us determine how it is that we can utilize those. I think the advances in 911, probably right now, are the things that excite me the most. I'll give you one example of this. I know we're running out of time. When one October happened in the first minute, we had 9,009 one one calls. Speaker 1: Crazy. Speaker 0: There's no call center in the world that can handle 9,009 one one calls. And imagine if you had an emergency aside from the mass shooting, we would have never even got to your call for hours or days even. So that ability to use AI and technology within that 911 call center to appropriately direct calls, to answer those calls in a timely manner, is a really exciting innovation for me as we move that forward. And I know we're all continuing to work on it, but, that's that's probably right now a short sighted answer for what you're looking for, but that's what I'm excited about. Speaker 1: And Garrett, what any any closing remarks on the future road map of technology? Speaker 3: The thing that I heard a long time ago, I think, from someone in this group was the future is actually already here. It's just unevenly distributed. And so in the case of flock, our our our future is that crime is no longer a problem. My kids are 5 and 3, and I'd like to think that when they're my age, they'll be like, wait. So you used to be, like, unsafe? Like, you used to actually, like, have to worry about your personal safety? And the reality is, like, that's already happening. We we've got dozens of agencies that, like the sheriff, are at a 100% clearance rate on violent crime, and they are approaching a 100% clearance rate on nonviolent crime. I wanna go live there. And I think that's gonna get faster and faster on the on the more specific product side if you go to a place like, Elk Grove, California, for any of y'all in in Northern California or the Bay Area, they're in the future. So in their real time crime centers powered by Flock, they get all their 911 calls. They have our DFR product. When a 911 call comes in, a gunshot detection, a stolen car, they have strategically placed about a dozen of our drones and docks throughout the city. They can get to any call for service in 30 seconds. Speaker 1: Amazing. Speaker 3: Imagine a change in quality of life for that community where they know no matter what is happening, law enforcement can be there in 30 seconds. And I think that just, like, will fundamentally change the way we think about our relationship with law enforcement and our overall quality of life. Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, thank you both. Thank you, Sarah, for all the work that you do and for taking time out of your day to be

@bhorowitz - benahorowitz.eth

“You can hate me now, but I won’t stop now.” - Nas It has come to my attention that Techcrunch is working on yet another piece on me. This time they seem to be curious about my donations to the Las Vegas Metro Police Department. To save everyone some time and from yet another unsubstantiated narrative, I thought I’d share how I’ve been helping the LVMPD become the most technologically advanced police department in the world. There were several reasons why I wanted to do this project and why I wanted to do it in Las Vegas: Public safety is incredibly important and impacts everyone. My wife Felicia grew up in a very high crime area and saw many of her friends murdered. These murders may sound like statistics to some, but they destroy families and lives. The key to making citizens, police, and suspects safer is better intelligence. If you do not have 1 on 1 confrontations between people with guns, that helps. If you don’t have high speed car chases, and you don’t have to chase people over fences and onto roofs, that makes everyone much safer. If people know that they are unlikely to get away with crimes, they are less likely to commit them. Our American Dynamism effort has been amazing in making the best technology available to the public sector, but the public sector often has trouble budgeting for strategic technology projects. By donating the technology, I am able to give LVMPD a running start. The LVMPD is perhaps the best in the country as exemplified by their incredibly high murder solve rate of 92%, which is the highest in the nation. I believed further enabling the incredible officers of the LVMPD would yield great results and it has. So what have we done so far that Techcrunch is investigating? We have been busy. There is much to investigate as there have been several areas of need. First, the LVMPD needed to solidify the basic technology of the department. Las Vegas added major events such as F1 and the Super Bowl, but didn’t correspondingly increase police funding. Specifically, they were short on computer terminals for officers, so Felicia and I donated $800,000 worth of new computer terminals. Next, Las Vegas was having difficulty retaining 911 operators. 911 is an incredibly stressful job and the attrition rate got so high that it was taking over 5 minutes to respond to emergency calls. In diagnosing the problem with Chief Mike Gennaro, we came up with a multifaceted solution. First, the LVMPD needed to fix the basic work environment. Felicia and I donated a new ice machine, a new cappuccino machine, and a new gymnasium to make a stressful job more pleasant. These new facilities were around $120,000. Next, we wanted to outfit them with the latest and greatest in emergency call technology, so we donated $400,000 to purchase technology from one of our portfolio companies, Prepared911. I am thrilled to report that attrition is way down and 911 calls are being answered in 30 seconds. Finally, the LVMPD wanted to radically improve its intelligence and situational awareness. To do this we donated approximately $6.3 million dollars towards the purchase of two state-of-the-art public safety technologies from Skydio and Flock Safety, also a16z portfolio companies. These technologies have been deployed with great success in cities like San Francisco as recently described by Mayor London Breed. The technologies put the LVMPD in a position of knowledge. For example, if someone steals a car with a baby in it, the Flock Safety system will locate and geotag the license plate, then a Skydio drone is automatically sent to monitor the situation. The camera feed from the drone will be sent to every police officer’s cell phone, so that they can approach the situation with the appropriate resources leading to a recovery of the child and a safe apprehension of the suspect. The early results of these efforts have been spectacular and will get much better as the LVMPD  approaches full deployment. For the 911 emergency service, the YTD average through September 2024 for calls answered in less than 15 seconds is 95%, up from 66% for the same time period in 2023. The general year over year crime statistics improved as follows: Shootings Decrease of 21.40% Year 2023: 668 Year 2024: 525 Shooting Victims Decrease of 24.20% Year 2023: 302 Year 2024: 229 Homicides (current solve rate 94%) Decrease of 20.79% Year 2023: 101 Year 2024: 80 Property Crimes Decrease of 10.90% Year 2023: 57,126 Year 2024: 50,874 On just the Flock Safety stand-alone implementation, the LVMPD was able to achieve the following: Stolen Vehicle Alerts Increase of 48% Year 2023: 2841 Year 2024: 4194 Suspects Arrested Increase of 17% Year 2023: 544 Year 2024: 639 Despite whatever Techcrunch writes, the LVMPD is just getting started and we are proud to support them in making Las Vegas the safest city in America for all of its citizens.

Saved - September 17, 2023 at 2:11 PM
reSee.it AI Summary
Suffering often fuels greatness. Jobs, Ellison, Musk, Bezos, and da Vinci all faced abandonment or abuse. Clinton, Obama, and many leaders turned abandonment into drive. Deep suffering is vital for progress and achievement throughout history. Respect those in the arena.

@KTmBoyle - Katherine Boyle

Walter Isaacson on the link between suffering and greatness and those with happy childhoods: “We grow up with fewer demons but we grow up with less drive. We end being Boswell and not Johnson. We end up being the observer and not the doer. Respect those who are in the arena…” A few years ago, I learned that Jobs, Ellison, Musk and Bezos have one central thing in common: abandonment, estrangement or abuse by their fathers. Issacson writes the same about Leonardo da Vinci: he was illegitimate in a time where that meant ostracism. Many political leaders — Clinton, Obama, etc— have similar stories of turning abandonment into drive. We are afraid to talk about how deep suffering often is essential for leadership and greatness —it is likely the common thread in creating real progress and achievement throughout history.

@lexfridman - Lex Fridman

Here's my conversation with @WalterIsaacson, author of the new biography on @elonmusk and one of the greatest biographers ever, having written incredible books on Einstein, Steve Jobs, Leonardo da Vinci, Jennifer Doudna, Benjamin Franklin, and many others. Outline of our…

Video Transcript AI Summary
In this video, Walter Isaacson explores various aspects of greatness, focusing on the role of difficult childhoods, Elon Musk's leadership style, and the importance of biography and storytelling. Isaacson highlights how individuals like Albert Einstein, Leonardo da Vinci, and Elon Musk have harnessed their challenging upbringings to fuel their ambitions. He discusses Musk's intense leadership style, emphasizing his focus on excellence, trustworthiness, and building great teams. Isaacson also delves into the significance of biography and storytelling in academia, sharing his experiences with interviewing subjects like Musk and Steve Jobs. He emphasizes the value of curiosity, active listening, and self-awareness in conducting interviews and living a meaningful life. Isaacson concludes by expressing his admiration for the interviewer and the impact of storytelling in inspiring individuals to overcome adversity and strive for greatness.
Full Transcript
Speaker 0: I hope with my books, I'm saying, this isn't a how to guide, but this is somebody you can walk alongside. Mhmm. You can see Einstein growing up Jewish in Germany. You can see Jennifer Doudna growing up or as an outsider, a Leonardo da Vinci, or Elon Musk, you know, in really violent South Africa with a psychologically difficult father. And getting off the train when he goes to the anti apartheid concert with his brother, and there's a A man with a knife sticking out of his head, and they step into the pool of blood, and it's sticking on their souls. This causes, You know, scars that lasts the rest of your life. And the question is not, how do you avoid getting scarred? It's you know, how do you deal with it? Speaker 1: The following is a conversation with Walter Isaacson, One of the greatest biography writers ever. Having written incredible books on Albert Einstein, Steve Jobs, Leonardo da Vinci, Jennifer Doudna, Benjamin Franklin, Henry Kissinger, and now a new one on Elon Musk. We talked for hours on and off the mic. I'm sure we'll talk many more times. Walter is a truly special writer, thinker, observer, and human being. I highly recommend people read his new book on Elon. I'm sure there will be short term controversy, But in the long term, I think it will inspire millions of young people, especially with difficult childhoods, with hardship in their surroundings or in their own minds to take on the hardest problems in the world and to build solutions to those problems no matter how impossible the odds. In this conversation, Walter and I cover all of his books and use personal stories from them to speak to the bigger principles of striving for greatness in science, in tech, engineering, art, politics, and life. There are many things in the new Elon book that I felt are best saved for when I speak to Elon directly again on this podcast, which will be soon enough. Perhaps it's also good to mention here that my friendships, like with Elon, nor any other influence, Like money, access, fame, power will ever result in me sacrificing my integrity ever. I do like to celebrate the good in people to empathize and to understand. But I also like to call people out on their bullshit with respect and with compassion. If I fail, I fail due to a lack of skill, not a lack of integrity. I'll work hard to improve. This is the Let's Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, Here's Walter Isaacson. What is the role of a difficult childhood in the lives of great men and women, great minds? Is that a requirement? Is it a catalyst? Or is it just a simple coincidence of fate? Speaker 0: Well, it's not a requirement. Some people with happy childhood who do quite well. But it certainly is true that a lot of really driven people are driven because they're harnessing the demons of their childhood. Even Barack Obama's, sentence in his memoirs, which is I think every successful man He's either trying to live up to the expectations of of his father or live down the sin of his father. And for Elon, it's especially true because he had both a violent and difficult childhood and a very psychologically problematic father. He's got those demons, dancing around in his head. And by harnessing them, it's part of the reason that he does riskier, more adventurous, wilder things and maybe I would ever do. You've written that, Elon talked about his father, Speaker 1: and that at times, It felt like mental torture, the the interaction with him during his childhood. Can you describe some of the things you've learned? Speaker 0: Yeah. Well, Elon and Kimball would tell me that, for example, when Elon got bullied on the playground. And one day was pushed down some concrete steps and had his face pummeled so badly that Kimball said I couldn't really recognize. I mean, he was in a hospital for almost a week. But when he came home, Elon had to stand in front of his father, And his father berated him for more than an hour and said he was stupid and took the side of the of the person who had beaten him. Speaker 1: That's probably one of the more traumatic events of Elon's life. Speaker 0: Yes. And there's also Beld School, which is a sort of Paramilitary camp that young South African boy's got sent to. And at one point, you know, he was scrawny. He has very, Bad at picking up social cues and emotional cues. He talks about being Asperger's. And so he gets, traumatized at a camp like that. But the 2nd time he went, he'd gotten bigger. He had shot up to almost 6 feet, and he learned a little bit of judo. And he realized that if he's getting beaten up, he might It might hurt him, but it he would just punch the person in the nose as hard as possible. So that sense of always punching back has also been ingrained in Elon. I spent a lot of time talking to Errol Musk, his father. Elon doesn't talk to Errol Musk anymore, his father, Nor does Kimble. It's been years. And, Errol doesn't even have, Elon's email. So a lot of times, Errol will be sending me emails. And Errol had one of those Jekyll and Hyde personalities. He was, you know, a great mind of engineering and especially Material science, knew how to build a wilderness camp in South Africa using mica and how it would not conduct the heat. But he also would go into these dark periods in which he would just be psychologically abusive. And, of course, May Musk says to me, the his mother, who divorced Darryl early on, said, The danger for Elon is that he becomes his father. And every now and then, you've been with him so much. Lex, and you know him well, He'll even talk to you about the demons, about Diopolo dancing in his head. I mean, he he gets it. He's self aware, But you've probably seen him at times where those demons take over, and he goes really dark and really quiet. And, Grimes says, you know, I can tell a minute or 2 in advance when demon mode's about to happen. And he'll go a bit dark. I was, you know, here at Austin, wanted dinner with a group. And you could tell suddenly something had triggered him, And he was gonna go dark. I've watched it in meetings where somebody will say, we can't make that part for less than $200 or No. That's wrong. And he'll berate them. And then he steps out of it. As as you know that too, the the huge snap out where Suddenly, he's showing you Monty Python skit on his phone, and he's joking about things. So I think coming out of the childhood, There were just many facets, maybe even many personalities, the engineering mode, the silly mode, the charismatic mode, the visionary mode, but also the demon in dark mode. Speaker 1: A quote you cited about Elon really stood out to me. I forget, who it's from, but inside the man, He's still there as a child, the child standing in front of his dad. Speaker 0: That was Tallulah, his 2nd wife, and she's great. She's An English actress. They've been married twice, actually. And Tallulah said that's just him from his childhood. He's a drama addict. Kimball says that as well. And I asked why, and he said and Tallulah said, you know, for him, Love and family are kind of associated with those psychological torments. And in many ways, he'll channel. I mean, Tallulah would be with him in 2008 when the company was going back or whatever it may have been or later. And he would be so stressed, he would vomit. And then he would channel things that his father had said, use phrases his father had said to him. And so she told me deep inside the man is this man child still standing in front of his father. Speaker 1: To what degree is that true for many of us, do you think? Speaker 0: I think it's true, but in many different ways. I'll say something personal, which is I was blessed, and perhaps it's a bit of a downside too, but the fact I had the greatest father you'd ever imagine, and mother. They were the kindest people you'd ever wanna meet. I grew up in a magical place in New Orleans. My dad was an engineer, an electrical engineer, and, You know, he was always kind. Perhaps I'm not quite as driven or as crazed. I don't have to prove things. So I get to write about Elon Musk. I get to write about, you know, Einstein or Steve Jobs or Leonardo da Vinci, who, as you know, was totally torn by demons and had different difficult childhood situations, not even legitimized by his father. So Sometimes those of us who are lucky enough to have really gentle, sweet childhood, we grow up with Fewer demons, but we grow up with fewer drives, and we end up maybe being Boswell and not being doctor Johnson. We end up being the observer, not being the doer. And so I always respect those who are in the arena. I don't you know? Speaker 1: You don't see yourself as a man in the arena. Speaker 0: I've had a gentle, sweet career, And I've got to cover really interesting people. But I've never shot off a rocket that might someday get to Mars. I've never moved us into the era of electric vehicles. I've never stayed up all night on the factory floor. I don't have quite those either the drives or the, Mhmm. Addiction to risk. I mean, Elon's addicted to risk. He's addicted to adventure. Me, if I see something that's risky, I spend some time calculating, okay, upside, downside here. But that's another reason that people like Elon Musk get stuff done, and people like me write about the Elon Musks. Speaker 1: One other aspect of this given a difficult childhood, whether it's, Elon or Da Vinci, I wonder if there's some wisdom, some advice almost that you can draw, that you can give to people with difficult childhoods. Speaker 0: I think all of us have demons, even those of us who grew up in a magical Part of New Orleans with sweet parents. Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 0: And we all have demons. And rule 1 in life is harness your demons. Know that you're ambitious or not ambitious or you're lazy or whatever. Leonardo da Vinci knew he was a procrastinator. You know? I think it's usual to know what's eating at you, know how to harness it, Also know what you're good at. I'll take Musk as another example. I'm a little bit more like Kimbal Musk than Elon. I maybe got over endowed with the empathy gene. And what does that mean? Well, it means that I was okay when I ran Time Magazine. It was a group about a 150 people on the editorial floors, and I knew them all, and we had a jolly time. When I went to CNN, I was not very good at being a manager or an executive of an organization. I cared a little bit too much that people didn't get annoyed at me or, mad at me. And Elon said that about John McNeil, for example, who is president of Tesla. It's in the book. I talked to John McNeal a long time, and he says, you know, Elon just would fire people, be really rough on people. He didn't have the empathy for the people in front of him, and Elon says, yeah. That's right. And John McNeal couldn't fire people. He cared more about pleasing the people in front of him than pleasing the entire enterprise or getting things done. Being over endowed with a desire to please people can make you less tough of a manager. And, that doesn't mean There are great people who are over endowed. Ben Franklin, over endowed with the desire to please people. The worst criticism of him from John Adams and others was that he was insinuating, which kind of meant he was always trying to get people to like him. But that turned out to be a good thing. When they can't figure out the big state, little state issue at the constitutional convention, when they can't figure out the treaty of powers, whatever it is, He brings people together, and that is his superpower. So to get back to the lessons you asked and, you know, the 1st was harness your demons. The second is to know your strength and your superpower. My superpower is definitely not being a tough manager. After running CNN for a while, I said, okay. I got proven I don't really enjoy this or know how to do this well. Mhmm. You know, do I have other talents? Yeah. I think I have the talent to observe people really closely, to write about it in a straight, but I hope interesting narrative style. That's a power. It's totally different from running an organization. It took me until 3 years of running CNN that I realized I'm not cut to be an executive in a really high intense situations. Elon Musk is cut to be an executive in highly intense situation So much so that when things get less intense, when they actually are making enough cars and Rockets are going up and landing. He thinks of something else, so he can surge and have more intensity. He's addicted to intensity. And that's his superpower, which is a lot greater than the superpower of being a good observer. Speaker 1: But I think also, to build on that, it's not just addiction to, like, risk and drama. There's always a big mission Mhmm. Above it. So I would say, it's an empathy towards People in the big picture. Speaker 0: It's an empathy towards humanity Humanity. More than the empathy towards the 3 or 4 humans who might be sitting in the conference room with you. And that's a big deal. And you see that in a lot of people. You see it, Bill Gates, Larry Summers, Elon Musk. They always have Empathy for these great goals of humanity, and at times, they can be clueless about the emotions of the people in front of them or callous sometimes. Musk, as you said, It's driven by mission more than any person I've ever seen. And it's not only mission, it's like cosmic missions. Meaning, he's got 3 really big missions. One is to make humans a space faring civilization, make us multiplanetary, or get us to Mars. Number 2 is to bring us into the era of sustainable energy, to bring us into the era of electric vehicles and solar roofs and, battery packs. And 3rd is to make sure that Artificial intelligence is safe and is aligned with human values. And every now and then, I'd talk to him and we'd be talking about Starlink satellites or whatever, or he would be pushing the people in front of him in SpaceX and saying, if you do this, we'll never get get to Mars in our lifetime. And then he would give the lecture how important it was for human consciousness to get to Mars in our lifetime. And I'm thinking, okay. This is the pep talk of somebody trying to inspire a team, or maybe it's the type of of, pontification you do on a podcast. But on, like, 20th time I watched him, I was, okay. I believe it. He actually is driven by this. He is Speaker 1: Frustrated and angry that because of this particular minor engineering decision, The big mission is not going to be accomplished. It's not a pep talk. It's a literal frustration. Speaker 0: And impatience of frustration, and, It's also just probably the most deeply ingrained thing in him is his mission. He joked at one point to me about how much he loved reading comics as a kid, and he said all the people in the comic books, They're trying to save the world, but they're wearing their underpants on the outside, and they look ridiculous. And then he paused and said, but they are trying to save the world. And whether it's Starlink in Ukraine or Starship going to Mars or trying to get a global new Tesla, I think he's got this epic sense of the role he's gonna play in helping humanity on big things. And like the the characters in the comic books, it's sometimes ridiculous, But it also is sometimes true. Speaker 1: When I was reading this part of the book, I was thinking of all the Young people who are struggling in this way. And I think a lot of people are in different ways, whether they grow up without a father, whether they grow up With physical, emotional, mental abuse, or demons of any kind as you talked about. And it's really painful to read, but also really damn inspiring That if you sort of walk side by side with those demons, If you don't let that pain break you or somehow channel it, if you can put it this way, that you can achieve you can do great things in this world. Speaker 0: Well, that's, an epic view of why we write biography, which is more epic than I had even thought of. So I say thank you, Because in some ways, what you're trying to do is say, okay. I mean, Leonardo, you talk about being a misfit? He's born illegitimate in the village of Vinci. And he's gay. And he's left handed. And he's distracted. And his father won't legitimize him. And, then he wanders off to the town of Florence. He becomes the greatest artist and engineer of the early renaissance of that part of the renaissance. I hope this book inspires Jennifer Doudna, the gene editing Pioneer who discovers helps discover CRISPR, gene editing tool, which my book, The Code Breaker, She grew up feeling like a misfit, you know, in Hawaii, in a Polynesian village being the only white person and also trying to live up to a father who pushed her. So if people can read the books, and I I should've said about Jennifer Datta. My point was that She was told by her school guidance counselor, no. Girls don't do science. You know, science is not for girls. You're not gonna do math or science. And so it pushes her to say, alright. I'm gonna do math and science. Speaker 1: Just to interrupt real quick, but, Jennifer Donner, You've written an amazing book about her. Nobel Prize winner, Chris Perda, she's incredible. One of the great scientists in the 21st century. Speaker 0: Right. And I'm talking about When Jennifer Doudna was young and she felt really, really out of place, like you and me and a lot of people when they feel in that way, They read books. They go into they curl up with the book. Mhmm. So her father drops a book on her bed called The Double Helix, the book by James Watson on the discovery of the structure of DNA by him and Rosalind Franklin and Francis Crick. And She realizes, oh my god. Girls can become scientists. My school guidance counselor is wrong. So I think Books, like she read this book, and even if it's a comic book, like Elon Musk read. Books can sometimes inspire you. And every one of my books is about people who were totally innovative, who weren't just smart, because none of us are gonna be able to match Einstein and mental processing power. But we can be as curious as he was and creative and think out of the box the way he did. Or Steve Jobs put it, think different. And so I hope with my books, I'm saying, this isn't a how to guide, but this is somebody you can walk alongside. Mhmm. You can see Einstein growing up Jewish in Germany. You can see Jennifer Doudna growing up or as an outsider, a Leonardo da Vinci, or Elon Musk, you know, in really violent South Africa with a psychologically difficult father and getting off the train when he goes to anti apartheid concert with his brother. And there's a A man with a knife sticking out of his head, and they step into the pool of blood and it's sticky on their souls. This causes, You know, scars that lasts the rest of your life. And the question is not, how do you avoid getting scarred? It's you know, how do you deal with it? Einstein too, Speaker 1: one of my and it's hard to pick my favorite of your, Biographies. But I Einstein, I mean, you really paint a picture of another I don't wanna call him a misfit, But a person who doesn't necessarily have a a standard trajectory through life of of success. So Absolutely. And it's that's extremely inspiring. I don't know exactly what question to ask. There's a million. Speaker 0: Well, I'll talk about the misfit for a 2nd, because, you know, we talked about Leonardo being that way. You know, Einstein's Jewish in Germany at a time when it starts getting difficult. He's slow in learning how to talk, and he's a visual thinker, so he's always daydreaming and imagining things. The 1st time he applies to the Zurich Polytech, because he runs away from the German education system because it's too much learning by rote, He gets rejected by the Zurich Polytech. That's the 2nd best school in Zurich, and they're rejecting Einstein. I tried to find but couldn't the name of the admissions counselor at the Azure College. Yes. Like, he rejected Einstein. And then he doesn't finish in the top half of his class. And once he Does, and he goes to graduate school. They don't accept his dissertation, so he can't get a job. He's not teaching it. He even tries about 14 different high schools at gymnasium, to get a job, and they won't take them. So he's a 3rd class examiner in the Swiss patent office That's in 1905. 3rd class, because they've rejected his doctoral dissertation, and so he can't be 2nd class or 1st class because he doesn't have a doctoral degree, and yet he's sitting there on the stool in the patent office in 1905 and writes 3 papers that totally transform science. And if you're thinking about being misunderstood or unappreciated. In 1906, he's still a third class Patrick. In 1907, he still is. It takes until 190 before people realize That this notion of the theory of relativity might be correct, and it might upend all of Newtonian physics. How is it possible for 3 of the greatest papers in Speaker 1: the history of science to be written in 1 year by this 1 person. Is there some insights, wisdoms you draw? Plus, he Speaker 0: had a day job as a patent examiner. Right. And there's really 3 papers, but there's also an addendum. Because once you figure out quantum theory, and then you figure out relativity, And you're understanding Maxwell's equations and the speed of light. He does a little addendum. That's the most famous equation in all of physics, which is e equals m c squared. So it's a pretty good year. It partly starts because he's a visual thinker, And I think it was helpful that he was at the patent office rather than being the acolyte of, some professor at the academy where he was supposed to follow the rules. And so the patent office said doing devices to synchronize clocks, because the Swiss have Just going on standard time zones, and Swiss people, as you know, tend to be rather, you know, Swiss. They care if it strikes the hour in Basel, it should do the same and burn at the exact instant. So you have to send a light signal between 2 distant clocks. And he's visualizing what's it look like to ride alongside a light beam. He says, well, if you catch up with it, if you go almost as fast, it'll look stationary, but Maxwell's equations Don't allow for that. And he said, it's making my palm sweat that I was so worried. And so he finally figures out, because he's looking at these devices, the synchronized clocks, That if you're traveling really, really fast, what's looks synchronous to you or synchronized to you is different Then for somebody traveling really fast in the other direction, and he makes the mental leap that time, that the speed of light's always constant, but time is relative depending on your state of motion. So it was that type of out of the box thinking, those leaps That made 1905 his miracle year, likewise with Musk. I mean, After General Motors and Ford, everybody gives up on electric vehicles, to just say, I know how we're going to have a path to change the entire trajectory of the world into the era of electric vehicles. And then when he comes back from Russia, where he tried to buy a little rocket ship so he could send a experimental greenhouse to Mars, and they were poking fun of him and actually Spit on them at one point in a drunken lunch. This is very fortuitous because on the ride back home on the plane on the, you know, Delta Airlines flight, He's like doing the calculations of how much materials, how much metal, how much fuel, how much would it really cost? And so he's visualizing things that other people would would just say is impossible. It's what Steve Jobs' friends called the reality distortion field, and it drove people crazy. It drove them mad, but it also that drove them to do things they didn't think they would be able to do. Speaker 1: You said visual thinking. I wonder if you've seen parallels of the different styles and kinds of thinking that, that operate the minds of these people. So, is there parallels you see between Elon, Steve Jobs, Einstein, da Vinci, specifically in how they think. Speaker 0: I think they were all visual thinkers, perhaps coming from slight handicaps as children, meaning, you know, Leonardo was left handed and a little bit dyslexic, I think. And certainly Einstein had At Koeya, he would repeat things. He was slow in learning to talk. So I think visualizing helps a lot. And with Musk, I see it all the time when I'm walking the factory lines with him or in product development, where he'll look at, say, the heat shield under the Raptor engine of a Starship booster. And he'll say, why does it have to be this way? Couldn't we trim it this way? Or make it or even get rid of this part of it. And he can visualize the material science. There's a small anecdote in my book, but at one point, he's on the Tesla line, and they're trying to get 5,000 cars a week in 2018. It's a life or death situation, and he's looking at the machines that are bolting something to the chassis. And he insists that Drew Bagley not Drew. Let Lars Moravey, one of his great lieutenants, come, and they have to summon him. And he says, why are there 6 bolts here? And Lars and others explained, well, For the crash test or anything else, the pressure would be in this way, so you have to, and they were blah blah blah blah blah. And he said, no. If you visualize it, you'll see if there's a crash, it would the force would go this way and that way, And it can be done with 4 bolts. Now that sounds risky, and they go test it and they engineer it, but it turns out to be right. I know that seems minor, But I could give you 500 of those, where in any given day, he's visualizing the physics of an engineering or manufacturing problem. That sounds pretty mundane. But for me, if you say, what makes him special? There's a mission driven thing. I give you a a lot of reasons. But one of the reasons is he cares not just about the design of the product, but visualizing the manufacturing and of the product, the machine that makes the machine. And that's what we failed to do in America for the past 40 years. We outsourced so much manufacture. I don't think you can be a good innovator if you don't know how to make the stuff you're designing. And that's why Musk puts his designer's desk right next to the assembly lines in the factories so that they have to visualize what they drew as it becomes the physical object. Speaker 1: So understanding everything from the physics all the way up to the to the software. It's like end to end. Speaker 0: Well, having an end to end control is important, certainly with Steve Jobs. I'm looking at my iPhone here. It's a big deal. That hardware only works with Apple software, And for a while, the iTunes store only what what's you know? So he has an end to end that makes it like a Zen garden in Kyoto. Very carefully curated, but a thing of beauty. For Musk, when he first was at Tesla And before he was the CEO, when he was just the executive chairman and basically the finance person person funding it, They were outsourcing everything. They were making the batteries in Japan, and the battery pack would be at some barbecue shop in Thailand, and then sent to the Lotus factory in England to be put into a Lotus Elise cha a chassis and then That was a nightmare. You did not have end to end control of the manufacturing process. So he goes to the other extreme. He gets a A factory in Fremont from Toyota. And he wants to do everything in house, the software in house, the painting in house, you know, the the the, battery. He makes his own batteries, And I think that end to end control is part of his personality. I mean, there's a but it Also, what allows Tesla, to be innovative. Speaker 1: Yeah. I got to see And understand in detail one example of that, which is the development of the brain of the car In the autopilot going from Mobileye to in house buildings, autopilot system to Mhmm. Basically, getting rid of all sensors that are not, rich in data to make it AI friendly, sort of saying that we can do it all with vision. And like you said, removing some of the bolts. So sometimes it's small things, but sometimes it's really big things like getting rid of radar. Speaker 0: Well, vision only. Getting rid of radar is huge, And everybody's against it. Everybody and they're still fighting it a bit. They're still trying to do a next generation some form of radar. But It gets back to the 1st principles. We talk about visualizing. Well, he starts with the first principles. And the first principles of physics, involve things like, well, humans drive with only visual input. They don't have radar. They don't have lidar. They don't have sonar. And so there was no reason in the laws of physics that make it so that vision only won't be successful in creating self driving. Now That becomes an article of faith to him, and he gets a lot of pushback. But now and he's, by the way, not been that That's when meeting his deadlines of getting self driving. He's way too optimistic. But it was that first principles of get rid of unnecessary things. Now you would think LiDAR, why not use it? Like, why not use a crust? It's like, yeah, we can do things vision only, but When I look at the stars at night, I use a telescope too. Well, you could use LiDAR, but you can't do millions of cars that way at scale. At a certain point, you have to make it not only a good product, but a product that goes to scale. And you can't make it based on maps, like Google Maps, because it'll never be able to, you know, then drive from New Orleans to Slidell where I wanna go when it's too hot in New Orleans. Take for example, Full Self Drive. He has been obsessed with what he calls the robo taxi. We're gonna build the next generation car without a steering wheel Speaker 1: Mhmm. Speaker 0: Without pedals. Because it's gonna be full self drive. You just summon it. You won't need to drive it. Well, over and over again, all these people I've told you about, you know, Lars Moravey and Drew Baglino and others. They're saying, okay, fine. That sounds really good, but, You know, it ain't happened yet. We need to build a $25,000 mass market global car that's just normal with a steering wheel. And, yeah, he finally turned around a few months ago and said, let's do it. And then he starts focusing on How's the assembly line gonna work? How are we gonna do it? And make it the same platform for robo taxi so you can have the same assembly. Likewise, for full self drive, They were doing it by coding hundreds of thousands of lines of code that would say things like, if you see a red light, stop. If there's a blinking light, if the Two yellow lines, do this. There's a bike lane, do this. If there's a crosswalk, do that. Well, that's really hard to do. Now he's doing it through artificial intelligence and machine learning only. FSD 12 will be based on the 1,000,000,000 or so frames from Tesla each week of Tesla drivers and saying, what happened when a human was in this situation? What did the human do? And let's only pick the best humans, the 5 star drivers, the Uber drivers, as Elon says. And so that's Him changing his mind and going to first principles, but saying, alright. I'm even gonna change full self driving So that's not rules based. It becomes AI based. Just like ChatGPT doesn't try to answer your question, who are the 5 best popes or something by study Chattopty PD does it by having ingested billions of of, pieces of writing that people have done. This will be AI, but real world done by ingesting video. Speaker 1: Sometimes it feels like, he and others, they're building things in this world successfully. I basically, confidently exploring a dark room with a very confident, ambitious vision of what that room actually looks like. Like Mhmm. Like, they're just walking straight into the darkness. There's no painful toys. Their leg goes on the ground. I'm just going to walk. I know exactly how far the wall is, and then very quickly willing to adjust as they run into they step on the Lego, And, their their body, is filled with a lot of pain. What I mean by that is there's this kind of evolution that's used to happen Where you discover really good ideas along the way that allow you to pivot. Like to me, Since, you know, since a few years ago when you could see with Andre Karpathy, the software 2.0 evolution of autopilot, It became obvious to me that this is not about the car. This is about Optimus, the robot. This this is, like, if we look back a 100 years from now. The car will be remembered as a cool car, nice transportation, but the the autopilot won't be the thing that controls the car. It will be the thing that allows embodied AI systems to understand the world so broadly. And so that kind of approach and so and you kinda stumble into it. Will Tesla be a a call company? Will it be an AI company? Will it be a robotics company? Will it be a home robotics company? Will it be an energy company? And then you kind of slowly discover this as you confidently, like push forward with a vision. It's been interesting to watch that kind of evolution as long as it's backed by this confidence. Speaker 0: There are a couple of things that are required for that. 1 is being adventurous. 1 doesn't enter a dark room without a flashlight and a map, unless you're a risk taker, unless you're adventurous. The second is to have iterative, brain cycles where you can process information and do a feedback loop and make it work. The 3rd, and this is what we failed to do a lot in the United States and perhaps around the world, is when you take risks, you have to realize you're gonna blow things up. You know, first 3 rockets that the Falcon rockets that Musk does, they blow up. Even Starship, 3 and a half minutes, but then it blows up the first time. So I think Boeing and NASA and others have become unwilling to enter your dark room without knowing exactly where the exit is and the lighted path to the exit. And the people who created America, whenever they came over, you know, whether the Mayflower is refugees from the Nazis, They took a lot of risks to get here, and now I think we have more referees than we have risk takers, More lawyers and regulators and others saying you can't do that. That's too risky, than people willing to innovate. And you need both. I think you're also right on 50, a 100 years from now, What Musk will be most remembered for besides space travel is real world AI. Not just Optimus the Robot, but Optimus the Robot and the self driving car. They're they're pretty much the same. They're using, you know, GPU clusters or dojo chips or whatever it may be, to process real world data. We all got, and you did on your podcast, quite excited about large language model, you know, generative, predictive text, AI. That's fine, especially if you wanna chitchat with your chatbot. But the holy grail is artificial general intelligence. And the tough part of that is real world AI. And that's where Optimus, the robot, or Full self drive, or I think far ahead of anybody else. Speaker 1: Well, I like how you said chitchat. I I would say for for for one of the greatest writers ever, It's funny that you spoke about language and the mastery of languages as merely chitchat. You know, people have fallen in love over Some words. People have gone to wars over some words. I think words have a lot of power. It's actually an interesting question where the wisdom of the world, wisdom of humanity is in the words or is it in visual in in visual, is it in the physical? Speaker 0: I don't really It's in mathematics. Speaker 1: It may maybe it all boils down to math, and in the end, this kind of discussion about, real world AI versus languages all the same, maybe. I've, Gotten a chance to hang out quite a bit in the metaverse with mister Mark Zuckerberg recently, and boy, Is the realism in there? Then you like, the the thing that's coming up in the future is incredible. I got, scanned, in, Pittsburgh for 10 hours into the metaverse, and there's, like, a a virtual version of me, and I got to hang out with that virtual word version. Speaker 0: Do you like yourself? Speaker 1: Well, I I never liked myself, But it was easier to like that other guy. That was interesting. Speaker 0: Does he like you? Speaker 1: He didn't seem to care much. Speaker 0: That's a lack of the empathy. Speaker 1: But, that was you know, it made me start to Question even more than before, like, well, how important is this physical reality? Because I I got to see, You know, my myself and other people in that metaverse, like, the details of the faith, the like, all the all the things that You think maybe if you look at yourself in the mirror, our imperfections, all this kind of stuff. When I was looking at myself and at others, all those things are beautiful, and it was, like, It was real, and it was intense, and it it, it was scary because you're like, well, are you allowed to murder people in the metaverse? Because, like, are you allowed to because what are you allowed to do? Because you can replicate a lot of those things, and It's you start to question what are the fundamental things that make life worth living here as Speaker 0: we know as humans. Have you talked to Elon about his views of when living in a simulation maybe and how you would figure out if that's true. Speaker 1: Yes. There's a constant lighthearted, but also a serious sense that this is all a bit of a game. Speaker 0: One of my theories on Elon, a minor theory, is that he read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy once too often. And, and as you know, there's a scene in there that says, that there's a theory about the universe, that if anybody ever discovers the secrets of meanings of the universe, it will be replaced by an even more complex universe. And then the next line Douglas Adams writes this. And there's another theory that this has already happened. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 0: So I I'm gonna try to get my head around that, but I know that Elon Musk tries to. Well, there there's a humor to that. There's an enormous humor to Hitchhiker's Guide. Now I really think that helped Musk out of the darkest of his periods to have sort of the sense of fun of figuring out what life is all about. Speaker 1: I wonder if this is a smaller size we could say. Just, I haven't gotten to know Elon very well, like, his the the silliness, the willingness to engage in the absurdity of it all and have fun. What is that? What is that, is that just a quirk of personality, or is that a fundamental aspect of a human who's running 6 plus companies. Speaker 0: Well, it's a release valve, just like video games and Polytopia and Elden Ring, a release valve's for him. And he does have an explosive sense of humor, as you know. And the weird thing is when he makes the abrupt transition from dark demon mode, and you're in a conference room. And he has really become upset about something. And not only their dark vibes, but there's dark words emanating, and he's saying your resignation will be accepted if you die, you know, etcetera. And then something pops, and he pulls out his phone and pulls up a Bonnie Python skit, you know, like the School of silly walks or whichever John Cleese it would and then he starts laughing again, and things break. So it's It's almost as if he has different modes, the emulation of human mode, the engineering mode, the dark and demon mode, And certainly, there is the silly and giddy mode. Speaker 1: Yeah. You've actually opened the Elon book with, quotes from Elon and from Steve Jobs. So Elon's quote is, to anyone I'm offended, I just wanna say it's an SNL. I just wanna say I reinvented electric Cars, and I'm sending people to Mars on a rocket ship. Did you also think I was going to be a chill, normal dude? And then the quote from Steve Jobs, of course, is The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do. So, What do you think is the role of the old, madness and genius? What do you think the role of crazy in this? Well, Speaker 0: First of all, let's both stipulate that Musk is crazy at times. I mean, and Then let's figure out. And I try to do it through storytelling, not through highfalutin preaching, where that craziness works. You know? Give me a story. Tell me a anecdote. Tell me where he's crazy. And, You know, the almost final example, AI, but him shooting off Starship for the first time, in between an aborted countdown and the street off, he goes to Miami to an ad sales conference and meets Linda Iaccarino for the first time, makes her the CEO. I mean, there's a very impulsiveness to him. Then he flies back. They launch Starship, and You realize that there's a drive and there are demons and there's also craziness, and You sometimes wanna pull those out. You wanna take away his phone so he doesn't tweet at 3 AM. You want to, say, quit being so crazy. But then you realize there's a wonderful line in of Shakespeare in measure for measure at the very end. He says even the best are molded out of faults. And so you take the faults of Musk, for example, which includes a craziness that can be endearing, but also craziness that's just, like, Effing crazy, as well as this drive in demon mode. I don't know that you can take that strand out of the fabric, and the fabric remains whole. Speaker 1: I wonder sometimes it saddens me that we live in a society that doesn't celebrate even the darker aspects of crazy in acknowledging that it all comes in 1 package. It's the man in the arena versus the critic. Speaker 0: And the man in the arena versus the regulator, and to make it more prosaic. Speaker 1: Well, let me ask about not just the crazy, but the cruelty. So in, You've written when reporting as Steve Jobs. Well, I was told you that the big question to ask was, did he have to be so mean, so rough And cruel, so drama addicted. What is this answer for Steve Jobs? Did he have to be so cruel? Speaker 0: For for Jobs? I asked Woz at the end of my reporting because that's what he asked said at the beginning. We're doing the launch of, I think, The iPad too, it may have been. Steve is emaciated because, you know, he's been sick. And so I say to Woz, what's the answer to your question? And he said, well, if I had been running Apple, I would have been nicer to everybody. I would everybody got a stock option. We've been like a family. And then I I don't know if you know Woz, but he's like a teddy bear. He paused, he smiled, and he said, but if I had been running Apple, I don't think we would have done the Macintosh or the iPhone. So yeah, you have to sometimes be rough And Jobs said the same thing that Musk said to me, which is he said, people like you love wearing velvet gloves. You know, I don't Not that I've worn Velvet Claws often, but you like people to like you. You like to sweet talk things, you sugarcoat things. He says, I'm just a working class kid, And I don't have that luxury. If something sucks, I gotta tell people it sucks, or I got a team of b players. Well, Musk is that way as well, and it gets back to what I said earlier, which is, yeah, I probably would wear velvet gloves if I could find them at my haberdasher. And I do try to sugarcoat things, but when I was running CNN Yeah. It needed to be reshaped. It needed to be broken. It needed to have certain things blown up. Yeah. And I didn't do it. Yeah. You know? So Bad on me, but it made me realize, okay. I'll just write about the people who can do it. Well, that thing of saying, Speaker 1: I think probably both of them, but Elon certainly Saying things like that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Speaker 0: Mhmm. By the way, I've heard Jeff Bezos say that. I've heard Bill Gates say that. I've heard Steve Jobs say it. I've heard Steve Jobs say it about a smoothie they were making in a Whole Foods or something. People they use the word stupid really often. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 0: And you know who else used it? Errol Musk. He kept making Elon stand in front of him and saying, that's the stupidest thing. You're the stupidest person. You'll never amount to anything. Mhmm. I don't know. You know, as John McNeal, the president of Tesla said, Do you have to be that way? Probably not. There are a lot of successful people who are much kinder, but, It's sometimes necessary to be much more brutal and honest, Brutally honest, I would say, than people like or win boss of the year trophies. Speaker 1: Well, as you said, this kind of idea did also send a signal. This idea of Steve Jobs of a players, it did send a signal to everybody. There was a kind of encouragement to the people that are all in. Speaker 0: Right. And that happened to Twitter. When we went to Twitter headquarters the day before the takeover he was having, Andrew and, James, his 2 young cousins, and other people from the autopilot team, going over lines of code. And Musk himself sat there with a laptop on the 2nd floor of the building looking at the lines of code that had been written by Twitter engineers, and they decided they were gonna fire 85% of them because they had to be all in. And this notion of psychological safety and mental days off and working remotely, he said either and then It came up, actually one of his, I think it was one of the cousins or maybe Ross nor didn't came up with the idea of Let's not be so rough and just fire all these people. Let's ask them, do you really wanna be all in? Because this is gonna be hardcore. It's gonna be intense. You get to choose, but by midnight tonight, we want you to check the box. I'm hardcore all in. I'll be there in person. I'll work, you know, as well, Or that's not for me. I've got a family. I got work balance. And you got different type of people that way in different stages of their life. I was a little bit more hardcore and all in when I was in my twenties and when I was, you know, in my fifties. Speaker 1: And you write about this. It's a really nice idea, actually, that there's 2 camps Mhmm. And you find out I don't I wonder how true this is. It it rings True. You can just ask people, which camp are you in? Are you the kind of person that prides themselves and enjoy staying up till 2 AM programming or whatever. Or do you see the value of quote unquote, you know, about life work life balance, all this kind of stuff. And it's interesting. I mean, you like, you you could people probably divide themselves in different stages of life, And you can just ask them, and it makes sense for certain companies in certain stages of the their development to be like, we all have teams. Speaker 0: It doesn't even have to be a whole company. And you're right. It goes back to what I was saying about rule. The first secret is sort of know thyself, obviously, comes from Plato, and, everything comes from Plato and Socrates. But, and decide, in this stage of my life, Am I do I wanna be a hackathon all in, all night and change the world? Or do I want to bring wisdom and stability, but also have balance? I think it's good to have different companies with different styles. The problem was Twitter was at Almost one extreme with yoga studios and mental health days off and, enshrining psychological safety as one of the mantras that people should never feel psychologically threatened. And he I remember the bitter laugh he unleashed when he kept hearing that word. He Said no. I like the words har hardcore. I like intensity. I like a intense sense of urgency as our operating principle. Well, yeah, they're people that way as well. So know who you are and know what type of team you wanna build. Speaker 1: Versus psychological safety and too many birds everywhere. Speaker 0: Oh, yeah. A lot of times, Musk did things, and I go, what the hell? Yeah. And the bottom line was changing the name Twitter and getting rid of the birds. I said, hey, man. So a lot invested in that brand. But when I watched him, he thought, okay. These sweet little chirpy birds tweeting away in the name Twitter, It's not hardcore. It's not intense. And so for better and for worse, I think he's taking x into the hardcore realm with people who post hardcore things, with people with hardcore views. It's not a polite playpen for the blue checked, anointed elite, and I thought, okay. This is gonna be bad. The whole thing's gonna fall But well, it has had problems, but the hardcore intensity of it has also meant that there's new things happening there. So it's very Elon Musk to not like the sweetness of birds chirping and tweeting and saying, I want something more hardcore. Speaker 1: As you've written in, referring to the the previous Twitter CEO, Elon said, Twitter needs A fire breathing dragon. I think this is a good opportunity to, maybe go through some of the memorable moments Of the Twitter saga as you've written about extensively in your book. It's from the early days of considering The acquisition to, how it went through to the details of, like you mentioned, the engineering teams. Speaker 0: Well, at the beginning of 2022, He was riding high, but as we say, he's a drama addict. He doesn't like to coast. And, you know, Tesla sold a 1000000 vehicles. I think 33 Boosters, you know, Falcon nines have been shot up and landed safely in the past few months. And he was the richest person on Earth and Times person of the year. And yet, He'd said, you know, I'm still wanna put all my chips back on the table. I wanna keep taking risks. I don't wanna favor things. He had sold all of his houses. So he started secretly buying shares of Twitter. January, February, March Becomes public at a certain point. He has to, declare it. And we were here in Austin at Gigafactory on the mezzanine. And he was trying to figure out, well, where do I go from here? And at that time, it was early April, They were gonna offer him a board seat, and he was gonna do a standstill agreement and stop at 10% or something. I remember, You know, we were standing around. It was Luke Nozick, whom you know well, Ken Howery, some of his friends on that mezzanine here, And all afternoon and then late into the evening at dinner is like, should we do this? And I didn't say anything. I'm just the observer, But everybody else is saying, excuse me. Why do you want to own Twitter? And Griffin, his son, joined at dinner, and May, for some reason, was in town. And, like, everybody says, no. We don't use Twitter. Why would you do that? And May said, well, I use Twitter. And then it's almost like, okay. The demographics are people my age or May's age. And so it looked like he wasn't gonna pursue it. They offered him a board seat And, then he went off to Hawaii to, Larry Ellison's a house, which he sometimes uses. He was meeting a friend, Angela Bassett, an actress. And instead of enjoying 3 days of vacation. He just became supercharged Mhmm. And started firing off text messages, including the fire breathing dragon one. I think, You know, he used that phrase a few times, that Parag wasn't the person who was going to take Twitter to a new level. And then by the time he gets to Vancouver, where Grimes Meets him. They stay up all night playing Elden Ring. He was doing a TED talk. And then, at 5 Thirty. He finishes playing Elden Ring and sends out that I've made an offer. Even when he comes back, People are trying to intervene and say, excuse me. Why are you doing it? And so it was a rocky period between late April in October when the deal closed. And people ask me all the time, well, did he wanna get out of a deal? I said, which Elon are you talking about at what time of day? Because there'll be times in the morning when he'd say, oh, the Delaware court's gonna force me to do it. It's horrible. Talk to his lawyers. You can win this case. Get me out of it. He met here in Austin with 3 or 4 investment bankers, Blair Efron, at Centerview, Bob Steele, and Perella Weinberg. And they offered him options. Do you wanna get out? Do you wanna stay in? Do you wanna reduce the price? And I think is he was mercurial. There were times he would text me or say to me, this is gonna be great. It's gonna be the accelerant to do x.com the way we thought about 20 years ago. We tell them at the beginning of October, right, when Optimus the robot is being unveiled in California, actually, Now the lawyer is saying you're not gonna probably win this case, but better go through with the deal. And by then, he's not only made his peace with it, he's kinda happy with it at time. Eventually, the deal is gonna close on a, I think a, Friday morning, I have it in the book. And we're there on Thursday, and he's wandering around looking at the Stay Woke t charts and psychological safety lingo they're all using. And he and his lawyers and bankers hatched a plan to do a flash close. And the reason for that was if they closed the deal after the markets had closed for the day. And he could send a letter to Parag and 2 others firing them, quote, for cause, and this'll be something the courts will have to figure out. Then he could save 200,000,000 or so. And it was both the money, but for him, a matter, I won't say of principle, but of, hey. They misled me about the numbers. I got forced into doing it, So I'm gonna I'm gonna try this jujitsu maneuver and be able to get some money out of him. Then when he takes over, it's kind of a wild scene, 15% of what it was, him deciding on Christmas Eve after he'd been in a meeting where they told him we can't get rid of that Sacramento server farm because it's need of a redundancy. He says, no. It's not. And he's flying here to Austin, And young James says, why don't we just do it ourselves? He turns the plane around. They land in Sacramento, and he pulls them out himself. So it was a manic period. Speaker 1: We should also say that underneath of that, there was a running desire to or consideration to perhaps Start a new, company to build a social media company from scratch. Speaker 0: Well, Kimball wanted to do that, and Kimball here at A wonderful restaurant in Austin, and lunch is like, hey. Why are you buying Twitter? Let's start 1 from scratch and do it on the blockchain. Yeah. Now it took them a while, and you can argue it one way or the other, to come to the conclusion that the blockchain was not fast enough and responsive time enough to be able to handle a 1000000000 tweets, you know, in a day or so. He gets mad when they keep trying to get him to talk to Sam Bankman Fried, who's trying to say I'll invest, but we have to do it on the blockchain. Kimball is still in favor of starting a new one and doing it on, blockchain based. In retrospect, I think starting a new media company would have been better. He wouldn't have had the baggage or The legacy that he's breaking now in breaking the, way Twitter had been, but it's hard to have millions and millions hundreds of millions of true true users, not just trolls, and start from scratch as others have found, as Mastodon and Blue Sky and threads, and not any threads even had a base, So it would have been hard. Speaker 1: Yeah. And, to do that in the way he did requires, another part that you write about with the 3 Gutierrez and the whole engineering, the firing, and the bringing in the engineers to try to sort of go hardcore. So there's a lot of interesting sort of questions to ask there, but The high level, can you just comment about that part of the saga, which is bringing in the engineers and seeing, like, what can we do here? Speaker 0: Right. He brought in the engineers and figured That the amount of people doing Tesla full self driving autopilot and all the software there was about 1 tenth of what was doing software for Twitter. And he said, this can't be the case. And he fired 85% in 3 different rounds. The first was Just firing people because they looked at the coding, and they had a team of people from Tesla's autopilot team grading the codes of every of all that was written in the past year or so. Then he fired people, you know, who didn't seem to be totally all in They're loyal, and then another round of layoffs. So, at each step of the way, Almost everybody said that's enough. It's going to destroy things. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 0: From Alex Spyro, his lawyer, to Jared Burchall. He's like, woah. Woah. Woah. You know? And even Andrew and James, the young cousins who are tasked with making a list and figuring out who's good or bad, say, we've done enough. We're going to be in real trouble. And they were partly right. I mean, there was degradation of the service some, but not as much as half the services I use half the time, you know. And I wake up each morning and Hit the app and okay. Still there. Speaker 1: What do you think? Was that too much? Speaker 0: I think that he has an Algorithm that we mentioned earlier that begins with question every requirement. But step 2 is delete, delete, delete. Delete every part. And then a corollary to that is if you don't end up adding back 20% of what you deleted, then you didn't delete enough in the 1st round because you were too timid. Well so he asked me, did he overdo it? He probably overdid it by 20%, which is his formula. And they're probably trying to hire people now to keep things going. Speaker 1: But it sends a strong signal to people that are hired back or the people that are still there, the the ape and Speaker 0: the idea. What Steve Jobs has been the other great leaders Svelte and certainly Bezos and certainly in the early days of Microsoft, Bill Gates. It was hardcore only a players. Speaker 1: So how much of Elon's success would you say Elon's, Steve Jobs' success is the hiring and managing of great teams? Speaker 0: When I asked Steve Jobs at one point what was the best product you ever created, I thought he'd say maybe the Macintosh or Maybe the iPhone. He said, no. Those products are hard. The best thing I ever created was the team that made those products. And that's the hard part, is creating a team, and he did, you know, from Johnny Ive to Tim Cook and, Eddie Que and Phil Shiller. Elon has done a good job bringing in people. Gwen Shotwell, obviously. Linda Iacarino, she's you know, can navigate through the current crises. Certainly, stellar people at SpaceX, like Martin Chingosa, and then at Tesla, like Drew Baglino and Lars Maravi and Tom Zhu and many others. He's not as much of a team collaborator as, say, Benjamin Franklin, Speaker 1: Mhmm. Speaker 0: Who, by the way, that's the best team ever created, which is the founders. And you had to have really smart people like Jefferson and Madison and really Passionate people like John Adams and his cousin Samuel and really a guy of high rectitude like Washington. But you also needed A Ben Franklin who could bring everybody together and forge a team out of them and make them compromise with each other. Speaker 1: Musk is a magnet for awesome talent. Magnet. Interesting. But there's the there's, like, the priorities of hiring of, Based on excellence, trustworthiness, and drive, these are things you've described Yeah. Throughout the book. I mean, there there's a pretty, concrete and rigorous set of ideas based on which the hiring is done. Oh, yeah. Speaker 0: And he has a very good, spidey, intuitive sense just looking at people who could I mean, not looking at them, but studying them, who could be good. One of his, ways of operating, is what he calls a skip level meeting. And let's take a very the big thing, like the Raptor engine, which is powering the, Starship. Speaker 1: Mhmm. Speaker 0: And it wasn't going well. It looked like a spaghetti bush, and it was gonna be hard to manufacture. And he got rid of the people who were in charge of that team. Speaker 1: Mhmm. Speaker 0: And I remember that he spent a couple of months doing what he calls skip level, which means instead of meeting with his direct reports on the Raptor team, He would meet with the people one level below them. And so he would skip a level and meet with them. And he said, this is and I just ask them what they're doing, and I drill them with questions. And he said, and this is how I figure out who's going to emerge. He said it was particularly difficult. I was sitting in those meetings because people were wearing masks. It was during the height of COVID. Mhmm. And he said it made it a little bit harder for him because he has to Mhmm. Get the input. But I watched as a young kid dreadlocks named Jacob McKenzie. He's in the book. He's sitting there, and he's a bit like you. Engineering mindset speaks in a bit of a monotone. Musk would ask a question and he would give an answer, and the answer would be very straightforward. And he didn't, you know, get rattled. He was like this. And I said one day, called him up at 3 AM. Well, I wouldn't say 3 AM, but after midnight said, you still running? Yeah. Jake said, yeah, I'm still at work. And he said, okay. I'm gonna make you in charge of the team building Raptor. And that was, like, A big surprise. But Jacob McKenzie has now gotten a version of Raptor, and when they're building them at least 1 a week, and they're pretty awesome. And, that's where his talent must talent for Finding the right person and promoting them, that's where it is, and promoting it in Speaker 1: a way where it's like a here's the ball. Or catch Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1: And you run with it. I have I've interacted with quite a few, folks from even just the model x, the all throughout where people, you know, on paper don't seem like they would be able to run the thing, and they run it extremely successfully. Speaker 0: And he does it wrong sometimes. He's had a horrible track record with the solar roof division. Wonderful guy named Brian Dow. I really liked him. And when they were doing the battery factory surge in Nevada, Musk got rid of 2 or 3 people, and there's Brian Dow. Can do. Can do. Can do. Stays up all night, and he gets promoted and runs it. Until finally, he goes, Musk goes through 2 or 3 people running the solar roof division. Finally calls up Brian Dow. I was sitting in Musk's house in Boca Chica, that little tiny 2 bedroom he has, And he offers Brian Dow the job of running Solar Roof. And, you know, Brian there okay. Can do. Can do. And 2 or 3 times, Musk insisted that they put install a solar roof in one of those houses in Boca Chica. This is this tiny village at the south end of Texas. And late at night, I mean, I'd have to climb up to the top of the roof on these ladders and stand on this peaked roof as Musk is there saying, why do we need 4 screws to put in this single leg? And And Brian was just sweating and doing everything. But then after a couple of months, it wasn't going well, and boom. Musk just fired him. So I always try to learn what is it that makes those who stay thrive. Speaker 1: What's the lesson there? What do you think? Speaker 0: Well, I think it's self knowledge like an Andy Krebs or others. They say, I am hardcore. I really wanna get a rocket to Mars, and that's more important than anything else. One of the people, I think it's I think it's Tim Zeman. I hope, when he hears this, I'm getting him the right person, who, you know, took time and was working for Tesla Autopilot. It was just so intense. He took some time off and and then went to another company. He said, I was burned out at Tesla, But then I was bored at the next place, so I called, I think it was Ashok at 10. I said, can I come back? He said, sure. Yeah. He said, I learned without myself. I'd rather be burned out than board. Speaker 1: That's a good line. Well, can you just, linger on one of the 3 that, seem interesting to you in in terms of excellence, trustworthiness, and drive. Which one do you think is is the most important and the hardest to get at? The trustworthiness is an interesting one. Like, are you ride or die kind of thing? Speaker 0: Yeah. I think that, especially, when it came to taking over Twitter, he thought half the people there were disloyal. Yeah. And he was wrong. About 2 thirds were disloyal, not just half. And it was how do we weed out those? And he did something and made, The firing squad, I call it, or the Musketeers, I think, is my nickname for them, which is, you know, the young cousins and 2 or 3 other people. He made them look at the Slack messages these people had post everybody at Twitter had posted, and they went through hundreds of Slack messages. So if anybody Posted on the internal Slack, you know, that jerk Elon Musk is gonna take over, and I'm afraid that he's a maniac or something. They would be on the list because they want all in loyal. They did not look at private Slack messages, and I guess people who are posting on a corporate Slack board should Be aware that your company can look at them, but that's more than I would have done or most people would have done. And so that was to figure out who's deeply committed and loyal. I think that was mainly the case at Twitter. He done sitting around at SpaceX saying who's loyal to me. At, other places, it's excellent, but that's Pretty well a given. Everybody is like a Marc Jinkosa, just whip smart. It's all you hardcore and all in, especially If you got to move to this spit of a town in the south tip of Texas called Boca Chica, you know, you gotta be all in. Speaker 1: Yeah. And that's the drive, the the last piece. So you in terms of collaborating one of the great teams of all time, Ben Franklin. I like that. Thought it was the Beatles, but Ben Franklin is is pretty good. Speaker 0: No. No. No. I'm sorry. Yeah. Speaker 1: Sorry to offend you, sir. Speaker 0: Read the constitution and read Abbey Road. Listen, every road. They're both good, but they're in a different league. Yeah. Different league. Speaker 1: Okay. So, one of the many things that comes to mind with Ben Franklin is incredible time management. Is there something you could say about Ben Franklin and about, Steve Jobs, I think interesting with Elon is that he, as you write, runs 6 companies. Mhmm. Seven company. Depends how you count with Starling because it's own thing. I don't know. What can you say about these people in terms of time management? Speaker 0: Well, Musk is in a league of his own in the way he does it. First of all, you know, Steve Jobs had to run Pixar and Apple for a while, But Musk, every couple of hours, is switching his mindset from How to implant the Neuralink chip, and what will the robot that implants it in the brain look like, and how fast can we make it move, and then the heat shield on the Raptor or switching to human imitation, machine learning, full self drive. On the night that the Twitter board, agreed to the deal. This is huge around the world. I'm sure you remember. Like, Musk buys Twitter. It wasn't when the deal closed. It was when the Twitter accepted his offer. Mhmm. And I thought, okay. But then he went to Boca Chica, to South Texas, and spent time fixating on, if I remember correctly, A valve in the Raptor engine that had a methane leak issue, and what were the possible ways to fix it? And all the engineers in that room, I assume, are thinking about, this guy just bought Twitter. Should we say something? Yeah. And he's like and then he goes with Kimball to a roadside joint, in Brownsville and just sits in the front and listens to music with nobody noticing really him being there. One of the things that one of his Strength and sort of weaknesses in a way. Is in a given day, he'll focus serially, sequentially on many different things. He will worry about, uploading video on to x.com or the payment system, and then immediately switch over to some issue with the FAA giving a permit for Star Ship or with how to deal with Starlink and the CIA. And when he's focused on any of these things, you cannot distract him. It's not like he's also thinking about, I'm dealing with Starlink, but I've gotta also worry about the Tesla decision on the new $25,000 car. Now he'll, in between these sessions, process information, then let off steam. And for better or worse, he lets off steam by Either playing a friend in Politopia or fire off some tweets, which is often not a healthy thing, but It's a release for him, and he doesn't I once said he was a great multitasker, and that was a mistake. People corrected me. He's a serial tasker Mhmm. Which means focuses intensely on a task for an hour, Almost has a whatever they call it at restaurants where they give you a pallet cleanser. Yeah. He does some palate cleanser with Polytopia Yeah. And then focus it on the next task. Speaker 1: I mean, is there some wisdom about time management that you Speaker 0: can draw from that? There are some things that these people do, and you say, okay. I can be that way. I can be more curious. I can question every rule and regulation. I I just don't think anybody to try to emulate Musk's time management style. Because it takes a certain set of teams who know how to deal with everything else other than the thing he's focusing on, and a certain mind that can shift Just like his moods can shift. You and I go through transitions. And, also, if I'm thinking about what I'm gonna say on this podcast, I'm also thinking about The email my daughter just sent about a house that she's looking, you know, and I'm I'm multitasking. He doesn't actually do that. He single tasks sequentially with a focus that's hardcore. Speaker 1: I don't know. I think there's wisdom to draw from that to, like First of all, he makes me Ben Franklin makes me feel that way, that there's a lot of hours in the day. Mhmm. There's a lot of minutes in the day. Like, There's no excuse not to get a lot done, and that requires just an extreme focus. An extreme focus and, like, an urgency. Speaker 0: I think the fierce urgency that drives him is important, And it's sometimes ginned up. Like I say, the fierce urgency of getting to Mars. Mhmm. And on a Friday night at the launch pad in Boca Chica at 10 PM. There are only a few people working because it's a Friday night. They're not supposed to launch for another 8 months. And he orders a surge. He says, I want 200 people here by tomorrow working on this pad. We have to have a fierce Sense of urgency, oh, we will never get to Mars. Speaker 1: That sense of urgency, you know, is also, a vibrancy That's, like, really taking on life fully. I mean, that to me, this the lesson is like, Even the mundane can be full of this just richness, and, like, you just have to really, take it in intensely. So, like, the switching enables that kind of intensity, because most of us can't hold that intensity in any one task for a prolonged period of time. Maybe that's also a lesson. Speaker 0: Right. And I guess it goes back to also know who you are, meaning Speaker 1: Know who you are. Speaker 0: There are people who can focus intensely, and there are people who can see patterns across many things. Look. Leonardo da Vinci, he was not all that focused. He was easily distracted. Procrastinate. It's why he has more unfinished paintings than finished paintings in his canon. Yeah. But his ability to see patterns across nature and to, in some ways, process, procrastinate, be distracted. That helped him some, but Musk is not that way. And there, Every few months as a new surge. You you don't know where it'll be, but it'll be on solar roofs. And all of a sudden, we'll have a surge, and there has to be, You know, a 100 solar roofs built, or this has to be done by tomorrow, or make a starship dome by dawn, and surge, and do it. And there are people who are built that way. It is inspiring, but also let's appreciate, You know, that there are people who can be really good, but, also can savor The success, savor the moment, savor the quiet sometimes. Musk's big failing is he can't savor the moment or success. And that's the flip side of hardcore intensity. Speaker 1: In, Innovators, another book of yours that I love, you write about individuals and about groups. So one of the questions the book addresses is Is it individuals, or is it groups that turn the tides of history? Speaker 0: When Henry Kissinger was on the shuttle missions for the Middle East Peace is the 1st book I ever wrote. He said, when I was a professor at Harvard, I thought that history was determined by great forces and groups of people. But when I see it up close, I see what a difference an individual can make. He's talking about the dot and Col de Meyer, probably talking about himself too, or at least in his mind. And, We biographers have this dirty secret that we know. We distort history a bit by making the narrative too driven by an individual, But sometimes it is driven by an individual. Musk is a case like that. And sometimes, as I did with the innovators, there's Teams and people who build on each other, and Gordon Moore and Bob Noyes then getting Andy Grove and doing the microchip, which then comes out, And Wozniak and Jobs find it at, some electronic store, and they decide to build the Apple. And so sometimes there are flows of forces and groups of people. I guess I air a little bit on the side of looking at what a Steve Jobs and Elon Musk and Albert Einstein can do. And I also try to figure out if they hadn't been around with the forces of history and the groups of people have done it without them. That's a good historical question as, you know, somebody who loves history. And you think about special relativity, one of the 1905 papers. Even after he writes it, it's 4 years before people truly get what he's saying, which is it's not just How you observe time is relative. It's time itself is relative. And on the general theory, which he does a decade later, I'm not sure we would gotten that yet. What about moving us into the era of an iPhone in which it's so beautiful that you can't live without a 1,000 songs in your pocket, email, and, the Internet in your pocket and the phone. There are a lot of brain dead people from Panasonic to Motorola who didn't get that, and it may have been a while. I certainly think it's true of the era of electric vehicles. Jim and Ford, all the great people there, they crushed the boat, and I mean that literally. They Ended up smashing them because they decided to discontinue it. Likewise, nobody was sending up rockets. Our space shuttle was about to be grounded 12 years ago. And so Musk does things, and there'll be people who say read the book. Once they read the book, they'll see the full story. But let's say it wasn't Musk who did Tesla. It was Martin Eberhard or Mark Toppany. No. No. No. You know, there were people who had helped create, you know, the shells of companies and other things, And they were all deserved to be called cofounders. But the guy who actually gets us to a 1000000 electric vehicles a year, Is Elon Musk? And without him, I don't think we look. If anybody 5 years from now buys a car that's gasoline powered, we'll think, that's quaint. You know? That's odd. Speaker 1: Mhmm. Speaker 0: I mean, suddenly, we've changed. We're not gonna do it. 90% of that is Elon Musk. Speaker 1: We're all mortal. When and how do you think Elon will retire from the insanely Productive schedule he's on now. Speaker 0: I would think that he would hate to retire. I think that he can't live without the pressure, the drama, the all in feeling. It's never been anything that seemed to have crossed his mind. He's never said, maybe I love Larry Ellison's house on the beach in Hawaii. Be maybe I should spend time in doing. Instead, he says things like, I learned early on that vacations will kill you. He gets malaria when he goes on 1 vac I mean, he goes on vacation at one point, and they oust him from PayPal. And then he goes to Africa one way. He gets malaria. He says, I've learned vacations kill you. Lesson learned. Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because the projects are 100 plus year projects. Many of these Speaker 0: One of the weird things is watching him think incredibly long term. One of the meetings every week, early on when I was watching him, was Mars Colonizer, And we did through a 2 hour meeting about what would the governance structure be on Mars, what would people wear, How would the robots work? Mhmm. And would there be democracy, or should there be a different form of governance. And I'm sitting there saying, what are they doing? What are they talking about? I mean, they're trying to build rocket ships and everything else. They are worrying about the governance structure of Mars. Mhmm. And, likewise, when Ever he's in a tense moment, like there's a rocket's about to be launched, he'll start asking people about something in the way future, like the new, LEET Engine or something. If we're gonna build that, do we have enough materials ready to order? Or I don't know. He'll just ask questions, Like when he's building RoboTaxi, the global car, the $25,000 That's not a total passion. He was talked into doing that. Mhmm. His passion is robo taxis. But his passion is, How are we gonna make this factory to do a 1000000 cars a year? Mhmm. So even the robo taxi is a longer range vision. I mean, he's been touting it since 2016, but, you know, we're not. I don't know. Robotaxis. I mean, there's Waymo may be doing a little experiments, have it, but there's not cars being manufactured without steering wheels that are going to take over the highways. Yeah. I'd say he's always looking way into the future is my point. Speaker 1: I just hope that, There's a lot of da Vinci's and Steve Jobses and Einsteins and Elon Musk's that carry the The flame forward. Speaker 0: That's one of the reason you write books about these people is so that if you're a young woman in a school where you're not Being told to do science, and you read The Code Breaker about Jennifer Doudna. You say, okay, I can be that. And when you say, Oh, maybe I'll be a regulator or you say, oh, no. Maybe I'll be the person who pushes the boundaries, who pushes the lines, who pushes, as Steve Jobs said, the human race. Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you about your mind, your genius, Your process. Speaker 0: I'll give you 2 out of 3. Speaker 1: Alright. Take me through your process of writing a biography. I mean, the the the full of it And not not just writing a biography, but understanding deeply, which your books have done for the human story and, like, the bigger ideas underlying the human stories. You've written biographies both of individuals, which are hardly individuals. Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 1: It's a really big complex picture, Speaker 0: and biographies of ideas that involve individuals. Well, step 1 for me is trying to figure out how the mind works. What causes Einstein to make that leap? Freelon Musk to say stainless steel while he's looking at a Carbon fiber, rob rocket, or how do you make the mental leap? Because I write about smart people, but smart people are a dime a dozen. They don't usually amount to much. You have to be creative, imaginative, to think different, as Jobs would say. And so what makes people creative? What makes them take imaginative leaps? That's the key question you got to ask. You also ask the questions like you've asked earlier, which is what demons or jangling in their head, and how do they harness them into drives? So you look at all that, and you try to observe really carefully, the person. One of the more mundane things I do is A lot of writers try to give you a lot of their opinions and preach or whatever. As I said, this mentor said 2 people types come out, preachers, storytellers, to be a storyteller. I try whenever I'm trying to convey a thought. There's 6 magic words that I almost should have written on a card penned above my desk, which is, let me tell you a story. So if somebody says, how does Elon Musk figure out good talent, as you did, I think, well, let me tell you the story. I tell you the story of Jake McKenzie. Mhmm. Or this is not something I invented. I mean, this is way the good Lord does it in the Bible. I mean, has the best openings set lead sentence ever, you know, in the beginning, comma, and then it's stories. And secondly, to pick up on that lead sentence in the beginning, make it chronological. Speaker 1: Mhmm. Speaker 0: Everybody in the 40th year of their life, has grown from the 39th year and the 38th year. And so you want to show help people evolve and grow. I had the greatest of all nonfiction narrative editors, Alice Mayhew at Simon Shuster, who, among other things, Created all the president's men with Woodward and Bernstein. But she had a note she'd put in the margins of my books that was a tigta, And it meant all things in good time. Keep it chronological. If it's good enough for the Bible, it's good enough for you. Speaker 1: Interesting. To me, like, that's a small note, but to you, it's it's extremely important. Speaker 0: Because it's the framework for how you structure things, but also how you ban things, which is if you keep it a chronological narrative, then you're showing how a person has grown from one experience you've told, talked about to the next one. And that moral growth, creative growth, risk taking growth, Wisdom, that's the essences of creativity, but you can't do it. You know, there's a Tom Bildungsroman, you know, which is a, you know, book of you know, that carries a narrative and does help people learn something. I'm a big believer in narrative. If you're an academic, you sometimes not today, but in, like, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, There were 2 things you thought were bad. 1 was, having a great person theory of history in which you Decide to do biography. I had a great professor when I was in college. Her name was Doris Kearns. Mhmm. She later married Dick Goodwin. And she, when she was going for tenure at the university, wrote a biography of Lyndon Johnson and the American dream. And they denied her tenure because it was beneath the dignity of the academy to write history through 1 person. That's great. It opened up the field of biography to us non academics, starting with David McCullough, Bob Caro, but maybe John Meacham and myself are in a new generation, and Certainly, and there's a generation coming after us. But the second thing besides telling it through people, which is the academy tended to disdain what they called imposing a narrative Mhmm. In which you made it storytelling. Because that meant you were leaving things out and making it into a narrative. Well, that's how we form our views of the world. Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you this question. In terms of gathering and understanding, how much of it is 1 observing, And how much of it is interviews? Speaker 0: Yeah. And, obviously, it depends on the subject. I mean, with a Ben Franklin. It's all based on archives. And every of course, we have 40 volumes of letters he wrote. That was the good old days when every day you'd write 20 letters. The must book is based much more on observation than almost any of my books because he opened up in a way that was Breathtaking to me. You know? Even when you'd be sitting, playing polytopia or seething at other pea you know, he that'd be just sitting there watching. I mean, I spent a lot of time with Jennifer Doudna in her side. I went to her lab and edited to the human gene and, you know, with a pipette and a test tube. But I would say I spent 30 hours with her. Mhmm. I can't count, you know, 100 hours or more just observing Musk. And I'm not Sure that any biographer, perhaps since Boswell took on doctor Johnson, has ever had quite as much up close, meaning 5 feet away at all times, access. And because of that, I'll go back to what I said a moment ago. I try to get out of the way of the story. Mhmm. It's not about me. It's not about I try to just say, okay. Here's what happened. Here's this story. Here's what happened the night he came in to Twitter for the 1st time and let you form Speaker 1: your own judgment. What about the interviews? You've had a lot of conversations. You give acknowledgment to the people you've get you've done interviews with. Well, 1, I have to ask as an aspiring interviewer myself, Speaker 0: how? People love to talk. People just love you know that. And I've had A 140, maybe a 150 people, they're all listed in the back. One of the little things that people won't notice, but I'll say it now, because all of them are on the record. Getting them to talk is easy. They all wanna talk about Musk. But then at a certain point, say, I don't put anonymous quotes in my book. I cite things. I say, if you're tough enough and you've gone through this and a lot of times, it takes 2 or 3 calls back. Somebody will tell me a story, say, oh, no. No. No. I don't enjoy it. But I think it's important to know where everything came from. And with Musk, it's you know, I had that from the very beginning because I was a Time magazine reporter. I'd worked reported for the Times Picayune on New Orleans. I, 1st day on the job, I had to go cover a murder, and, phoned in the story from a payphone. And my editor you know, the city editor said, Well, did you talk to the family? I went, no, Billy. I mean, the family, you know, the daughter just got he said, go knock on the door. I knocked on the door. An hour later, they were still talking. They were bringing out her yearbooks. Lesson 1 I learned, people want to talk if you're willing to just listen. And whether it be Henry Kissinger, you just push the button and say Kissinger, and people tell you the stories, all the way through Elon Musk. Everybody talked. Everybody in his family, everybody he fired, everybody. I mean, I think it's important to listen to people. And the other thing I learned as a reporter, back when I was covering politics in New Hampshire in the early campaigns, I learned from 2 or 3 great reporters, a guy named David Broder and Tim Russert, the late NBC guy. They do what was called door knocking. You just walk in the neighborhood, knock on the door, and ask people about the election. But they said, here's the secret. Don't ask any leading questions. Don't have any premise. Just say, hey. I'm trying to figure out this election. What's going on? What do you think? Mhmm. And then stay silent. With Musk a third secret. You know this well. He'll go silent at times. Sometimes A minute, 2 minutes, 4 minutes. Mhmm. Don't try to fill the silences. If you're a listener, you gotta learn. Okay. He's not saying anything for 4 minutes. I can outlast him. Speaker 1: It's tough. As as humans, it's very tough. Respecting and silence is really, really difficult. Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 1: Speaking of demons, when there's silence, all the demons show up in my head. Speaker 0: Oh, yeah. Speaker 1: The fear, I think, is if I if I don't say anything, is boring, and if I say something, it's gonna be stupid. And that that that's the basic engine that just keeps running, not on the podcast well, on the podcast, but also in human interaction. And so I think there's that nervous energy when interacting with people. Speaker 0: You can never go wrong by staying silent if if there's nothing you have to say. Not something I've mastered, but I do when I'm a reporter, try to master that, which is Don't don't ask complex questions. Don't interject. And when somebody hasn't fully answered the question, don't say, well, let me you know, I haven't fully just stay silent, and then they'll keep talking. Just give them Speaker 1: a chance to keep talking even if they've kinda finished Yeah. Still. Speaker 0: Sometimes if they haven't given you enough, instead of following up, I'll just nod and Keep waiting. Speaker 1: You're making it sound simple. Is there a secret to getting people to open up more? Speaker 0: I'm somewhat lucky Because, you know, I started off working for a daily newspaper, and people back then, they wanna talk to the Newspaper reporter. Speaker 1: But you also have a way about you. Like, I feel like you have, like, a cowboy in a saloon. Like, you just kinda wanna talk. Like, there's a draw. I don't know I don't know what it is. Maybe that's I don't know if it's developed or you're born with it, but there's a it feels like I wanna tell you a story of some sort. Speaker 0: Good. Tell me a story. A couple things. I did learn to be more quiet. I'm sure I know when I was Younger or even I'll see videos of me at, you know, news Things where I'm always trying to interject a question. And so you learn to be quieter sometimes. I haven't mastered it. I haven't learned it enough. You learn to be naturally curious. Many reporters today, when they ask a question, or either trying to play gotcha or trying to get a news scoop or trying to, you know, gig something that can make a lead. And if you actually are curious, And you really wanna know the answer to a question, then people can tell that you asked it because you want the answer, not because You're playing a game with them. Speaker 1: So I'm sure some of them off the record, some of them on the record you had, maybe, you know, What just some incredible conversations. I was gonna say some of the greatest conversations ever, but who knows? Some of the best conversations ever are probably Somewhere in South America between, you know, 2 drunk people that we never get to hear. So I don't I don't know. But, is there a device you can give From what you've learned to somebody like me and how to have good conversation, especially when it's recorded. Speaker 0: Well, do we actually curious. I mean, every question you've asked me is because I think you actually want to know the answer, and you've done your homework, to be open, and not to have an agenda. I mean, we all suffer from there being too many agendas in the world today. Speaker 1: Yeah. So that is just genuine curiosity, but, there's something when you talk about just 1 on 1 interaction, whether it's Elon or Steve Jobs or There's something beautiful about that person's mind, and it feels like It's possible to reveal that, to discover that together, efficiently. And that's kind of the goal of a conversation. Speaker 0: Well, I mean, look. You're amongst the top podcasters and interviewers, you know, in the world today. You have an earnestness to you. Ben Franklin is the person who taught me, I mean, by reading him, the most about on conversation. He wrote a wonderful essay on that. It includes On Silence, but it includes trying to ask sincere questions rather than get a point across. I mean, It's somewhat Socratic. But whenever he wondered, I wanted to, like, start a fireman's corps in Philadelphia. He would go to his group that he called the Leather Apron Club, And they would pose a question. Why don't we have it? What would what would it take? What would be good? And then the 2nd part is to make sure that you listen. And if somebody has even just the germ of an idea, give them credit for it. Like, as Joe said, You know, the real problem is this. And I do think that if I'm in situations, and I just mean even at dinner or something Mhmm. And I'm with somebody, I'm usually curious, and I'll the conversation will proceed, you know, with with questions. And I guess it's also because I'm pretty interested in what anybody's doing, whoever I happen to be with. And so that's a talent you you have, which is you're pretty genuine in your interests. They're people like Benjamin Franklin, like the, I'll say, Charlie Rose, even though he's in disfavor, who are interested in a huge number of subjects, and I think that helps as well to be interested in basketball and opera and physics and metaphysics. That was a Ben Franklin. That was a Leonardo trick, which is they wanted to know everything you could possibly know about every subject knowable. Speaker 1: But there's a different aspect of this, which is, that I would I would love to hear How you've solved it or if you've faced it, that you're certainly disarming. Tara. Trying to get you out. Disarming method. Yeah. I've recently talked to Benjamin Netanyahu. We'll we'll talk again. We, unfortunately, because of scheduling and complexities, Only had 1 hour, which is very difficult. Mhmm. Very difficult with the charismatic posture. I understand this. But he's also a charismatic talker, which is very difficult to break through in 1 hour. But there are people who have built up walls, Whether it's because of demons or because of, their politicians, and so they have agendas and narratives and so on. And so to to break through those, I wonder if there's some advice, some wisdom you've learned on how to, sort of wear down through water or whatever whatever method the the walls that we've built up as individuals. Speaker 0: I mean, you call it disarming, which I don't know that I am, but disarming basically means you're taking down their shields also. And you know when people have a shield, And you try to give them comfort. I had zero of that problem with Elon Musk. I mean, it was like disarming to me, which is I kept waiting to say, okay, he's not gonna always, they've got a shell or he won't do that. But He was, almost crazily open and did not seem to, wanna be spinning or hiding or faking things. And I've been lucky. Doudna was that way. Steve Jobs was that way, But you have to put in time too. In other words, you can't say, okay. There's a 1 hour interview, and I'm gonna break down every wall. It's like on your 5th visit. Speaker 1: Yes. Well, it actually that's one of the things in my situation. You learn 5th visit is very nice, but sometimes you don't get a 5th visit. Sometimes it's just the 1st date. Mhmm. And, I think what it boils down to, and and we said disarming, but there's something about this person that you trust. I think a lot of it just boils down to trust in some deep human way. I think, with with, with many of the people I've spoken with, sometimes the trust happens, like, after the interview, which is really sad because it's like, oh, man. Speaker 0: I've never been in your situation where I have a show. I usually have Midnight Max at the wheel. Yes. I, I'm not a first date person here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know But then I'm lucky. I mean, I'm in I say lucky, but I'm in print. You know? I understand. Print is a couple 1000 year old medium, but there are those of us who love it. Well, Speaker 1: the nature of the podcast medium is that I'm a 1 1 night stand kinda girl. Let me ask you about objectivity. You Follow Elon. You've lost the like, you're you've you've I mean, I don't even know if you would say your front you have to be careful with words like that, but you're there's an intimacy. And how do you remain objective? Do you want to remain objective while telling a deeply human story. Speaker 0: Yeah. I mean, I want to be honest, which I think is akin to being objective. I try to keep in mind who's who am I writing for? I'm not writing for Elon Musk. As I say, I haven't sent him the book. I don't know if he I don't think he's read it yet. I've got 1 person I'm writing for, the open minded reader. And if I can put in a story and say, well, that will piss off the subject, or that will really make the subject happy. That's irrelevant, or I try to make that a minor consideration. It's, will the reader and have a better understanding because I put this story in the book. Speaker 1: I'm a bit of a romantic, So to me, even your Einstein book Yeah. Had lessons on on romance and relationships. Oh, dear. So how important are romantic relationships to the success of, great men, great women, great minds? Speaker 0: Well, Sometimes people who affect the course of humanity have better relationships with humanity than they do with the humans sitting around him. Einstein had 2 interesting relationships with wives. Just for, you know, Maleva, his first wife, was a sounding board and helped with the mathematics of the special relativity paper in particular. But he didn't treat her well. I mean, he, made her, like, sign a letter that She wouldn't interrupt him. She wouldn't you know? And finally, when she wanted a divorce, he couldn't afford it because he was still a patent clerk. And so, he offered her a deal, which is, I think, totally amazing. He said, one of these days, one of those papers from 1905 is gonna win the Nobel Prize. If we get a divorce, you know, I'll give you the money. That was a lot of money back then, like $1,000,000 now or something. And she's smart. She's a scientist. She consults with a few other scientists, and after a week or so, she takes the bet. It's not until, what, 1919 that he wins his Nobel Prize? And she gets all the money. She buys 3 apartment buildings in Zurich. With his 2nd wife, Elsa, It was more a partnership of convenience. It was not a romantic love, But he knew, and that's sometimes what people need in life is just a partner. I mean, somebody who's gonna handle the stuff you're not gonna handle. So I guess if you look at my books, they're not great inspiring guides to personal relationships. Speaker 1: Let me ask you about, actually, the process of writing itself. When you've observed, when you've listened, when you've collected all information, What's, maybe even just the silly mundane question of, what do you eat for breakfast before you start writing? When do you write? Speaker 0: 1st of all, breakfast is not my favorite meal, and those people who tell you that you have to start with a hearty breakfast. Luke Askins. Yes. And morning is not my favorite day part, so I write at night. And Because I love narrative, it's easy to structure a book, which is I can make a outline that if I printed it out or notes, would be a 100 pages, but everything's in order. In other words, if we serve if there's a Burning Man and he's coming back from Grimes and then there's a solar roof saying, and then there's something. I put it all in order day by day as an outline. And that disciplines me when I'm starting to write to follow the mantra from Alice Mayhew, my first editor, which is all things in good time. Don't get ahead of the story. Don't have to flash back. Mhmm. And then after you get it so that it's all chronological, you know, things. Then you have to do some clustering. You know? You have to say, okay. We're going to Do the decision to do Starship or to build a factory in Texas or to whatever. And Then you sometimes have the organizational problem of, yeah, and that gets us all the way up to here. Do I keep that in this that chapter, or do I wait until later when it's better chronologically. Speaker 1: But those are easy. Well, what about the actual process of telling the Speaker 0: story. Well, that's the mantra I mentioned earlier, which is whenever I get pause or I don't know how to say something, I just say, let me tell you a story. Yeah. And then I find the actual anecdote, the story, the tale that encompasses what I'm trying to convey. And then I don't say what I'm trying to convey. I don't have a transition sentence that says, You know, Elon sometimes changed his mind so often, he couldn't remember whether he changed his mind. You know, you don't you don't need transition sentences. You just say, alright. Here's the point I need to make next. And so you start with a sentence that says, You know, one day in January in the factory in Texas, comma. Speaker 1: Well, one of the things that I'd love to ask you is, for advice for for young people. To me, first advice would be to read biographies. In a sense, Because they help you understand of all the different ways you can live a life well lived. But from having written my address, having studied so many great men and women, what advice could you give to people, of how to live this this life. Speaker 0: Well, I keep going back to the classics and Plato and Aristotle and Socrates. And I guess it's Plato's Max, somebody may be quoting Socrates, that the unexamined life is not worth living. And it gets back to the know thyself and other things, which is you don't have to figure out what is the big meaning of it all, but you have to figure out why you're doing what you're doing. And that requires something that I did not have enough of when I was young, which is self awareness and examining every motive, everything I do. Speaker 1: Where does the examination lead you? Is it, to to, To Speaker 0: a shift Speaker 1: in in life's trajectory? I Speaker 0: mean, it's not for me, Sort of, alright. I've now decided, having been a journalist, I'll run a think tank, or I'll run a network, or I'll write a bio. It is actually something that's more useful on an hourly basis. Like, why am I about to say that to somebody, or why Am I going to do this particular act? What's my true motive here? And also, in the broader sense, to learn as I did after a couple years at CNN. I I my examination of my life is that I'm not great at running complex organizations. I'm not great as a manager. Given the choice, I'd rather somebody else have to manage me than me have to manage people. But it took me a while to figure that out, and I was probably too ambitious when I was young and at Time Magazine. That was when I was green and oh, well. That was when I was in my salad days and green and judgment, And it was like chasing the next level at Tyme Incorporated, whatever it might be. And then one day, I caught the brass ringing. I became an editor and then the top editor. And after a while, I realized, that wasn't really totally what I'm suited to be, especially when I got put in charge of CNN. I mean, all young people are almost by definition in their salad days and green in judgment, but You learn what's motivating you, and then you learn to ask, But is that really what I want? Should I be careful of what I'm wishing for? Speaker 1: One of the big examinations you can do is the fact that you and everybody dies one day. How much do you, Walter, Isaac, think about death? Are you afraid of it? Speaker 0: No. And I don't think about it a lot, but I do think about Steve Jobs' let me tell you Sure. You know, which is the wonderful Steve Jobs story of, I think after he was diagnosed, but before Probably. And he gave both a Stanford talk, but other things in which he said the fact that we are going to die Gives you focus and gives you meaning. If you're gonna live and Elon Musk has said that to me, which is a lot of the tech bros out in of Silicon Valley that looking for ways to live forever forever. I can think, Musk says, of nothing worse. We read the myth of Sisyphus, and we know how bad it is to be condemned to eternal life. So There was in ancient Greece, the person who walked behind the king and said, memento mori. Remember, you're gonna die. And it kept people from losing it a bit. Do you think about legacy? The lucky thing about being a biographer is that you kinda know what your legacy is. There's gonna be a shelf, and it'll be of interesting people. And you will have inspired a 17 year old Biology student somewhere to be gen you know, the next great biochemist or somebody to start a company like Elon Musk. And what I think more about, I won't say giving back. That's such a trite thing. I moved back to New Orleans for a reason. First of all, the hurricane hit. And after Katrina, I was asked to be, vice chair of the recovery authority. And I realized everything I've got going for me, It all comes from this beautiful gem of a troubled city. The wonderful high school I went to, the wonderful streets where I learned to ride a bike, the you know, and it's got challenges. I'm never gonna solve challenges at the grand global level. But I can go back home and say part of my legacy is going to be, I tried to pay it back to my hometown. Even by teaching at Tulane, which I don't do as a favor. I mean, I enjoy the hell out of it. But it's like, alright. I'm part of a community. And I think we lose that in America because people who are lonely are lonely because they're not part of a community. But I've got all my high school kids. They're friends. They're all So in New Orleans, I've got my family, but I also have Tulane institutions in New Orleans that have been there forever. And if I can get involved in helping the school system in New Orleans, helping the youth empowerment programs, of helping the innovation center at Tulane. I was even on the city planning commission, which worries about zoning ordinances for short term rentals. You know, go figure. But it was like, no. Immerse myself in my community because my community was just so awesomely good and allowing me to become who I became, and has trouble year by year, hurricane by hurricane, making sure that each new generation can be creative. And it's a city of creativity from jazz to the food, to the architecture. So When I think of, I won't say legacy, but what am I gonna do to pay it forward, which is a lower level way of saying legacy. I pay it forward by going back to the place where I began and trying to know it for the first time. That was a, rip off of a TS Eliot line. I don't want you to think I thought of that one. Speaker 1: Always cite your sources. I appreciate it. Speaker 0: PS Elliott, if you ever need to figure it out, the 4 debts, So if that part at the end, which is we shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all of our exploring will be the return to the place where we started and know it for the first time to the unknown, but half remembered gait. It's just beautiful. And that's been an inspiration of What do you do in, I guess, if it's a Shakespeare play, you'd call it act 5. Well, you go back to the place where you came and See for legacy. Don't sit there worrying about legacy, but you'll that they're saying, how do I make sure that somebody else can have a magical trajectory starting in New Orleans? Speaker 1: Well, to me, you're one of the greatest storytellers of all time. I've been a huge fan. Speaker 0: Definitely not true, but it's so sweet of me. You see, you can be, rudely interrupting. Mhmm. Speaker 1: The from, I think probably Ben Franklin, So for, I don't know, how many years, 15 years, Einstein, all the way through today, has been a huge fan of yours, and you're one of the people that I thought surely would not lower themselves to appear and have a conversation with me. And it's just a giant gift to me. Speaker 0: Hey. I flew into Austin for this because I am a big fan and especially a big fan because you take people seriously, and you care. Speaker 1: Thank you a 1000 times. Thank you for respecting me and for inspiring Just millions of people with your stories. Again, an incredible storytelling, incredible human, and thank you for talking today. Speaker 0: Thank you, Alex. Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this conversation with Walter Isaacson. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now Let me leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Carl Jung. People will do anything, no matter how absurd, in order to avoid facing their own souls. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness Mhmm. Conscious. Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
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